ama podcast
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josh: [00:00:00] It's not like a hierarchy where somebody's dominating the whole group . It's that they depend on that hierarchy for survival, because somebody has to be in charge yeah.
victoria: And think about the best leaders. in the world. And even just, if we're thinking about humans, the best leaders are good listeners. Absolutely. The best leaders empower the people that they are leading. Yeah. The best leaders are inspirational.
the best leaders collaborate and inspire creativity in the horse world, the word leader takes on this patriarchal kind of dominating macho, man. Yeah. And you see it, you see people acting like that with their horses and that is not what we're talking about.
Mm. Going back to Brene brown, writes about the power of being a good leader and it has nothing to do with dominance. Yeah. It has everything to do with collaboration and working together. But there does have to be a leader. Somebody does have to set a boundary around who's going [00:01:00] to pick and choose how this is gonna
josh: happen.
Welcome to the herd is calling podcast. This is where we break free from conventional norms to explore the art, science, and wonder of the horse human connection. I'm Josh Williams. And together with my wife, Victoria, we're your hosts. Our mission is to inspire. you to improve the lives of horses.
Subscribe to The Herd is calling on Substack for behind the scenes stories and unique content. Now let's get to the episode.
Introduction and Welcome
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josh: Welcome. Journeyers to the herd is calling podcast. Thank
victoria: you for being here with us today. We're so glad that you're along the journey with us.
josh: Yeah, the herd is stronger together. So what are we gonna talk about today, Victoria? We're
victoria: doing and ask me anything.
josh: we have a Facebook group, holistic horsemanship. You're welcome to join. And we have an open AMA question [00:02:00] board there, we also do live AMAs with our students. Pretty often we thought let's just go through and grab a few questions from there and make a podcast out of it.
victoria: These are some really cool questions that were actually really fun. To talk about, we had some great conversations around them.
Exploring Connection vs. Dominance
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victoria: So the first one today is a question in reference to signs of connection versus signs of dominance.
josh: that's a good one with horses, cuz that's so confus. Because we really do use different communication mechanisms with, human and ho is so much different than human
victoria: to human.
right. That's the paradox, it's, a lot the same and it's a lot different love that paradox. It saves the day every time, but I think where the, intersection. Our ability to be aware and notice
I think we humans and, horses communicate a lot in the same ways. We just have better mechanisms for not communicating the truth.
josh: Well, yeah, I could see that. And that's kind of a predator thing, you know, if you're a lion, [00:03:00] you gotta be sneaky to get to your prey. Exactly. Whereas horses survive by their herd mentality in communicating honestly, to each other.
victoria: Exactly. Yeah.
Understanding Horse-Human Communication
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victoria: so that's where body, language and energy are the only way that horses communicate facial expressions body movement. these are. The modes with which horses communicate. humans have these big frontal lobes where we. lost in our thoughts and create these stories around why we're doing the thing we're doing so, that is where we can get in the weeds with our
josh: horses. Big time Human. And ho brains are almost like two pieces of a puzzle too. And how well they work together, which is part of a whole other discussion on partnership, but they have a giant motor cortex. That's part of how they communicate so well through their body.
We have a giant frontal cortex. Civilization was built using horsepower, before automotive engines and all that stuff. we really benefited from partnering with horses, for their bodies. They really [00:04:00] benefited from partnering with us because we learned how to grow bale and harvest hay.
victoria: yeah. that's one thing, but I'm actually, one of my beliefs is that horses do like to learn different ways to use their bodies. They like to connect with beings. And we offer those two things. Right. We, if, when we're connected, we can show them ways of using their body.
That feel good. Yeah. When, when we do it, right. Yeah. When, if we're in our integrity as, trainers horses actually I think enjoy that. Yeah. So that's what we offer horses too. Awesome. Beyond just food, right. which that's a big. Yes. Yeah,
josh: no, I love that extra context though.
The Role of Leadership in Horsemanship
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josh: and the background to this question too, is this particular horse we're talking about was a wild Mustang who exhibits the traits of what we call a passive leader in the herd.
This horse's writer is somewhat new to horsemanship. Most, totally new to horsemanship and. struggles with that relationship, that interplay between dominance [00:05:00] and connection. And he was honestly confused about this one scenario and it was as simple as her walking up to Victoria and kind of putting her nose and nudging her a little bit.
in horse language that could go a lot of different ways. Mm-hmm so why don't you break that down for us? how that particular scenario was and what made it that way?
victoria: Even just to back it up just a tiny bit more. I think he has realized that a lot of the behavior that he used to think was just her connecting is actually her dominating him.
Oh, right. Good point. And because she's a passive leader, she's more of a horizontal leader which is very typical. Mustangs because they've lived in real herd environments, real, their actual wild horses that lived in wild free herds. Mm-hmm you see a more natural herd dynamic in them.
Mm-hmm . so she In a very polite, very soft way was often just letting him know that she was higher in the [00:06:00] hierarchy of their relationship than he was so that was a huge light bulb for him. It's like now he's like rethinking. Everything he does with her,
josh: which is awesome.
The beginner's mind that we talk so
victoria: much about. And he's having a blast doing it. Mm-hmm I mean, I think it was a little startling, a little like wonk, wonk wonk at first. Like, you mean she's not just like cuddling me or hugging me or like loving me, like, no, she's actually really hurting you around , you know, making sure that you follow her And once he wrapped his head around that and realized that that's actually just one way of connection, it's not the only way. And now he needs to start looking at the way he interacts with her from that lens. It's really empowering for him. it's improved their relationship. So, but that said, now he's a little bit like, well, was that dominance or was that a connection.
Cause it's very subtle at this level. Exactly. And I think the first thing to kind of dissect there is that. Kind of reach out from a horse is a form of connection. Whether they're [00:07:00] checking to see who's the leader in the scenario, whether they're actually taking on the leadership role, Whatever it is, it's a form of connection. Those are all
josh: variations of connection. So the clue, the trick is how to interpret that connection, Cause our frontal lobes need to categorize this connect.
victoria: They do, and we need to be. Just slightly higher in the hierarchy. If our relationships are gonna work, maybe not at first, maybe at first, we're just more like, kind of following the horse as Tom Doran said, kind of observing and getting to know the horse, but eventually we need the horse to go with us.
We become a little higher, even just a little,
josh: I think that's a really powerful point, cuz we do talk a lot about mindfulness and horsemanship and we try to approach horsemanship as a practice and really considering the horse.
it's natural to think about that and maybe we shouldn't be dominant or maybe this or that or the other thing, but something we learned from the great Dominique Barbiere he just really spelled it out in one of his lectures that in the [00:08:00] horse world and in the animal world in general, there's always a number one and a number two spot.
we have to be a number one, if we want to connect at all. Mm-hmm because we weigh 10 times less than them. . Yeah, exactly. And if you're not in that position, the possibility of you getting hurt. Very high, it may be unintentional, so I appreciated that because the way he approaches. Horsemanship really is like an active meditation. And he's so connected with his horses, but he was very clear. Like you have to be number one mm-hmm you have to be the leader. And I think it's a great example of the paradox where two things could be true at once.
You know, it doesn't mean that you're domineering and aggressive. In fact, that would be counter to everything that we're saying, but it just means. Claiming that spot, that's part of you embracing your role as a leader that your horse can trust, because it's not that they're looking for leadership.
It's not like a hierarchy and a corporation where somebody's dominating the whole group and they've hire and fire. It will it's that they depend on that [00:09:00] hierarchy for survival, because somebody has to be in charge mm-hmm . Yeah. And they're looking for that. And if you are willing to do. In a way that communicates trust and competency they're good with that, but somebody has to fill that role and if you're not gonna fill it, then they will.
And that's when we get in trouble. Mm-hmm
victoria: And think about the best leaders. in the world. And even just, if we're thinking about humans, the best leaders are good listeners. Absolutely. The best leaders empower the people that they are leading. Yeah. The best leaders are inspirational.
the best leaders collaborate and inspire creativity and Collaboration. So, I think in the horse world, the word leader takes on this sort of for lack of a, just kind of patriarchal kind of dominating macho, man. Yeah. And you see it, you see people acting like that with their horses and that is not what we're talking about.
Mm. Looking, you know, going back to Brene brown, writes about the power of being a good leader [00:10:00] and it has nothing to do with dominance. Yeah. It has everything to do with collaboration and working together. But there does have to be a leader. Somebody does have to set a boundary around who's going to pick and choose how this is gonna
josh: happen.
that's ultimately the great opportunity and great privilege that we're in when we're working with horses. So you can step into that. And it's really a powerful, empowering, wonderful thing to be able to do. Right. So what, what was this horse doing that particular day?
victoria: so he finished writing her and. And he got off and we were just talking about what had happened and the horse slowly, one step, pause, another step. Very carefully, very intentionally approached me got to a certain point. , necks and head length, or a little bit more away from me and stopped then stretched her neck and her nose out to me and reached out and, lightly touched me with her [00:11:00] nose.
Mm-hmm our student's question was, was that dominance or was that connection? we're like looking at all this stuff as connection, but what he was meaning was she just sort of saying, hi mm-hmm the questions that you ask yourself, there's a couple, how do you know the difference?
I didn't feel at all, like there's a gut feeling you have when somebody's pushing on you, When somebody's breached your personal boundary bubble. Yeah.
josh: When you feel like you kind of need to move out of it
victoria: when it's uncomfortable mm-hmm and that's that gut feeling that many of us tune out because our, culture sort of demands it.
Working with horses, creates. The opportunity to really cultivate that gut feeling. Mm-hmm so that was number one, the, the tone with which she approached me was so gentle, so soft. So sort of questioning like is mm-hmm is this okay? and is this okay? Right? That there was no breach of my personal space.
So that's the first question I ask is like, just how does it feel? Okay. And it. Lovely. It felt felt [00:12:00] nice. Really nice. Mm-hmm the second question I ask myself is did I move my feet?
josh: Mm-hmm yeah. I love that. It's a real practical, actionable thing that you can keep an eye on with horses.
So much comes down to the feet. Yes. Who's moving who,
victoria: whose feet are moving in response to whose feet that are moving exactly. And it might
josh: be very subtle. Am I? Yes. It's a perfect example. Had you had, she started to do that and you just kind of backed up exactly that would've reestablished the hierarchy immediately.
Just that. Little thing, but you didn't move and you allowed her in at the same time, which actually built up your position as a healthy, leader. She was just
victoria: checking. Yeah. And in, that boundary helped her feel more safe and secure too. She's like, exactly. Okay. I thought so.
I thought you were in charge here. just checking so glad now I'm gonna take a nap. , I would
josh: imagine on. inverse side too. Had you kind of thought, oh, she's dominated me and tried to shoe her away. She would've kind of thought this one [00:13:00] kind of lo person, little out of control.
They're not really a leader. I can trust, you know,
victoria: a hundred percent. Exactly. It works both ways. Mm-hmm you see that a lot with people who are fearful or maybe just a little too dominant or a little too attached
josh: . Do you have any final points on that dominance versus connection question? No.
Okay, moving on to another question.
Recognizing Signs of Joy in Horses
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josh: It was when Caitlin was working with diamond in the round pen, you talked about diamond showing joy. What do you think are the top five signals from a horse that it's happy and having fun?
victoria: this was a horse that was in one of our clinics.
josh: That's right. It was actually a journey clinic.
josh: really dedicated and talented writer. great little horse, but a little on the, more shut down side of the
victoria: spectrum. Exactly. This horse is really neat little horse but tends to be pretty stoic about the way she mm-hmm interacts with humans.
Yeah. It doesn't
josh: show a lot of emotion.
victoria: And we don't know why we don't know the history so much. [00:14:00] they have only had her for a short while. we were using the round pen exercises as a way to develop a little more connection between the horse and the student. Mm-hmm a little more spark a little bit more energy like it was connected.
not just the horse trotting. And now loing because the student flicks the whip and kisses, like there's an actual conversation happening. that's what we want it to look like. So the question is what are the top five signals from a horse?
That it's happy and having fun.
josh: That was memorable in the clinic because this horse, because of the exercise you had, 'em doing, it was like the layers of the onion started to get pulled back. Right. And all of a sudden she like totally transformed and started showing this kind of incredible playful, happy personality.
You
victoria: could see her inner light kind of coming out where it had been pretty. Dull.
josh: You had made a comment about Joyce. So the question is what, what made you think that, what are the top five signs?
victoria: let's see. [00:15:00] I think the first one was just her gates got bouncier, there was more lift and play the bouncier and the more impulsion they look joyful.
josh: Yeah. It's kind of intuitive in that
victoria: way. that's how I feel when I see her too. Mm-hmm when she's moving like that before she was just sort of going through the motions kind of just doing kind of head down doing the work.
Yeah. Just like, let me just do my job and this will be over soon. all of a sudden her gates got bouncier. there was a little spring in her step and it looked like she was having fun. in that movement.
The second one is one of my favorites, the buck and far combo.
That's
josh: what I do when I'm feeling joyful.
victoria: The buck and fart combo, we all know it. Whether it's our husbands or our horses, , it's like, there's this moment of full embodiment. You don't care. Who's watching or what's happening.
You're just moving your body because you feel your body It's a horse thing and it's a uniquely horse thing. [00:16:00] Yeah, it is too. Mm-hmm like you, you see it. you're so relaxed and it's so open that you fart. . When, back when I was apprenticing A lot of times we didn't get bucked off those young horses we got farted off is what we would say.
And so it wasn't that the horse like bucked us off because they were ranked or, wanted to unload us. They were just fresh and we got farted off . And that's a good thing. In the right scenario. Mm-hmm we don't necessarily enjoy that when we're on the horses. That's why working in the round pan and on the ground sort of creates a space that we can allow the horse to express themselves in that way without.
Being in too much danger. Nice. Does that make
josh: sense? It does. Yeah.
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josh: So, then number three, you had on the bit at Liberty.
victoria: So this is, like after the buck and fart. the horse actually becomes in frame like gets on the bit, becomes in that vertical frame as if, even at Liberty with no bridal, no halter loose in the round pen or being lunged, they become vertical in that framed, collected position.
josh: we go really into depth with that in the journey. We should probably do a podcast just on like being on the bit and biomechanics and what that means. Mm-hmm , but it, the name's a little elusive for people who Aren. Familiar with the term, cuz you really think it's all about a bit. But it's really not actually [00:18:00] it's really just them getting in a position where they're using all the force that's available in their bodies.
Another way to look at it. It's kind of like an optimum biomechanics they're exactly using all their, power that's in their body and it's really neat to see and horses do it when they're playing. Mm-hmm .
victoria: They do it when they're grazing. I mean, it's It's a natural.
Frame for them. and it means that they are not embrace or intention. It means that they are focused it means that their body, like you said, it so beautifully , all the faculties of their body, all the power, all the impulsion, all the beauty is at their disposal right there.
Ready, for each step. that's dressage that's the basis of more elevated writing is right. Being able to harness that beauty, that power while we're writing
josh: them. Yeah. If you've ever gotten done with like a yoga class, when you walk out, you just kind of have an extra spring to your step.
That would kind of be like our version of being on the.
victoria: It's a feeling it's a lifting of the [00:19:00] spine. A lengthening of the spine in the horse. they're using their core. Their headquarters are engaged, they've engaged their, core and their headquarters to the extent that their limbs are very light and loose and flexible and moveable.
And you know, those of you who have felt it when you're writing them, it's the most. Wonderful feeling When you see a horse doing that on their own, in the pasture, in the round pen, whatever it's, the most beautiful way they move.
josh: So number four is soft eyes moving ears.
victoria: this is all of the things that we're talking about, plus. The horse is staying very soft in their expression. their eyes are soft. They're, lightly blinking. You know, when a horse is intention or embrace or is afraid or is shut down, they get what's called a hard eye. their eyes kind of almost even look smaller they'll skin around their eyes, their eyelids and, Their face around their eyes is, tight mm-hmm . So when [00:20:00] you see blinking, when you see large soft liquidy eyes, when you see wrinkles around their eyes, that's a soft expression. That means the horse is not bracing. It's not shut down. That's what we're looking for. Yeah.
josh: Nice. Let's see, what was the last one?
Last one was seeking connection. and what does that look like?
Going back to the Tom dos quote. I think we've said it in the last couple podcasts. The first we go with a horse mm-hmm then the horse goes with us, then we go together.
victoria: That moment when you've been going with the horse and they offer. To go with you. That's a moment of joy. That's a moment of softness. That's a moment of lightness. That's connection,
josh: kinda openness trust, all of that. in this example, going with the horse is giving them the freedom to. Be themselves in the round pen.
of course that's proceeded by making sure they have all the safety, comfort and care. They need to even be able to get to the round pen and feel relaxed mm-hmm and then they are able to do that in the round pen, which is [00:21:00] surprising how many people have a misconception about what round pens are for some people really just use them to actually run their horse out or Make them tired. it's a bummer cause that's a big missed opportunity. in this case we actually encouraged her to just be herself. then, like you said, she showed some curiosity. She showed some willingness to connect with Kaylin at that moment. And that's an opportunity for the horse to go with her.
And then of course the third part of the Tom Doran's quote is in, they go together. So mm-hmm
victoria: a horse doesn't connect. If they're not feeling relaxed, if they're not feeling kind of seen and appreciated, they're not going to connect. I mean, there
josh: you go. That's really what this is designed to do.
It's letting them be themselves. And then you're witnessing that and they. Seeing you witness that.
victoria: Totally beautiful.
Building Trust with Your Horse
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josh: So last question is , what are your top five things that add marbles to the jar and more importantly, top five that take them out of the jar.
This is something we could literally. Do a whole [00:22:00] episode on, but the jar in this context refers to Brene Brown's trust teaching analogy. You want to explain that for us?
victoria: Well, the marble jar is a metaphor for how you build trust. The thesis behind it is that trust is built in small daily interactions.
not these big sweeping gestures or moments that's the, the marbles one little marble at a time your jar becomes full that's the trust. I love that analogy. Mm-hmm cuz I think. It fits beautifully with horses because I think that's how we build trust with our horses.
It's in those moment to moment interactions, in showing up it's in encouraging our horse to show up. in this question, what are the, what is it the top five, top
josh: five we put 'em in and he also asked top five that would remove. marbles from the trust jar.
So you have loving kindness as number one,
having loving kindness in your heart because [00:23:00] horses speak with energy and that's a heart energy.
victoria: If we go back to our sciencey stuff on the heart math phenomenon there's an energetic field that's happening that we are connected to. and our horses connect to us through that,
josh: It's called the horse field.
victoria: The horse field. Yeah. Yes mm-hmm is that what it's.
That's what we call it. That's what we call it. Mm-hmm that's what I thought. Yeah. We call it the horse field, like the force, like in it's our horse, like
josh: the force, but yeah, it's
victoria: a horse field. It's the horse field and it's a, it's a thing. And so that's number one. That's just that sort of tenderness approaching everything in a loving way.
And maybe the most more practical application of that is just like giving your horse the benefit of the doubt in situations. Okay,
josh: Then you go right into mindfulness number two.
victoria: That's, you know, the crux of everything that we talk about, it's just being present. Being aware, not being attached to what our thought processes are around situations or the stories [00:24:00] that we've created around scenarios mm-hmm and situations accepting things without judgment.
That's probably the most important tool working with.
josh: Yeah, mindfulness sums it all up for us. We say my horse journey where mindfulness and horseman should meet. Booya number three, your true self absent of ego and judgment. Oh yeah. I like
victoria: that. this is the showing up thing.
let your horse see you. like you don't need the armor. Take the armor off, lay it down. It's heavy. your horse appreciates seeing the real you.
josh: Even if you think you need it in your day to day life or at work or whatever you don't need it when you're with your horse.
victoria: So, laying that down. That just creates a level of congruency in your body and your spirit and your mind. So what you do with your horse will feel congruent to them and they will respond,
josh: Yeah.
victoria: I love that you practice what you preach. You do what you say that's how you build trust.
josh: Three is curiosity.
victoria: this is where just [00:25:00] reframing anything that starts to go wrong through a curiosity frame. Like reframing with a curiosity frame. Allow myself to introduce myself.
josh: It it's like it's the beginner's mind. Mm-hmm
victoria: mm-hmm it's being curious. Curious. Don't have a assumption, right? Looking at. Anything that goes wrong as not a failure, but a sort of data rich situation. Right. Which you can learn from that helps your horse feel safe with you.
josh: Then we have listen to your horse and attune to what they're saying and how they're saying it.
victoria: This goes back a little bit to mindfulness, because in order to listen to your horse, you have to. Observe your horse, because they don't say much with verbal sounds
josh: You're able to communicate to the horse that you understand them when you tune into their level and how they communicate with energy face, expressions, body language.
victoria: what that does is it allows you to see the world through their lens. So you start to see. The world, the way your horse sees [00:26:00] it. And when you do that, you start to look at the world differently. You start to look at your horse's experience differently. You have empathy for what they might be going through.
you can relate a little bit. You're like, whoa, I get why you might be feeling anxious about getting into the horse trailer right now. Because when I look at it through the lens of your experience, horse, your being the horse mm-hmm , I all of a sudden understand what a big deal it is. And then that can create me approaching, asking you to get in the trailer in a different way.
That's more empathetic. That's more tuned in, and that creates trust
josh: And I think that leads perfectly into the last one. convey that you indeed trust your horse.
victoria: You've got to. trust your horse in order for your horse to trust you.
josh: Yeah, we like to say trust is a two-way street. Most people just think the horses should trust us, but we're not actually willing to trust the horse. Again, it's it's energy. It all goes back to energy.
victoria: intention [00:27:00] about what you're doing. But yeah allowing your horse to be themselves seeing the world through your horse's perspective is a way to show your horse that you trust them.
When you show your horse that you trust them, there's a reciprocity that'll happen,
He was asking what takes the marbles out? Yeah.
josh: And you answer that by saying, a lack of awareness and in the absence of clear intentions, from a horse's perspective.
Indifference and unconsciousness are dangerous.
victoria: they're may be the most dangerous because if you don't know where your feet are, as the human. you might get stepped on. Yeah. if you don't know what your body's doing. All of a sudden you've become sort of the weak link in the herd, right?
Yeah. You've become you've become a liability in that horse's ability to stay safe. we're not talking about a roof over their head. We're talking about like safe from dying. When they feel unsafe, they feel like they could die.
It's like that big of a deal. Hmm. Yeah. And [00:28:00] one of the ways you could. Get yourself in a situation where you could die as a horse is not being aware and attuned to your surroundings. Mm-hmm . So when we show up and say, Hey, horse, I'm here, but it's very clear that we are not paying attention and we are not being present.
That's dangerous.
josh: Okay. I think that answers that.
Fun and Final Thoughts
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josh: we're just gonna finish off with one last question. One more question. Yeah. It's a really serious one it's probably tough to get into, cause we already went overtime a bit, but so serious question are unicorns real?
victoria: I believe I gotta believe
josh: as do I on that note. Thank you for joining us on our podcast. We'll see you next time. And as always,
victoria: may the horse be with you? Bye.
I hope you enjoyed the show today. We'd love for you to join our free sub stack community for the herd is calling connect with us, engage in thoughtful discussions and access [00:29:00] exclusive content. Click the link nearby to subscribe. It's so easy and totally free. We appreciate listening. And as always, may the horse be with you.
