edited Jacob Podcast 1
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[00:00:00]
Introduction to Jacob Homer
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Jacob: began to realize pretty quickly that something was working better for me than it had in the past.
And it had a lot to do with the practices that I was doing. and just being present and being grounded put me in a place of naturally asking the question, what do you need? Hmm. To the horse I made that sort of my. Core pursuit with this animal was just to sleuth out, like, how can I help you?
And that was really effective and I, I was not working with any specific technique. I wasn't working within any specific discipline. I was just seeing what was possible. And that really, that put some things together for me. Got me thinking a little bit more about the association for me between yoga, philosophy and horsemanship.
Welcome to the herd is calling podcast. This is where we break free from conventional norms to explore the art, science, and wonder of the horse human connection. I'm Josh Williams. And together with my [00:01:00] wife, Victoria, we're your hosts. Our mission is to inspire. you to improve the lives of horses.
Subscribe to The Herd is calling on Substack for behind the scenes stories and unique content. Now let's get to the episode.
Joshua: We are here with Jacob Homer, who we are exceptionally honored to feature on our podcast. We met Jacob down at Barbie Farms when we had an opportunity to go down for a symposium Jacob and was actually featured in the symposium, we even have some little video of him writing.
Mm-hmm. . It's very inspiring. We came back and actually talked about Jacob for our students and how exceptional he was, I'm going to share a little bit about his background here. Jake is currently app apprenticing at Barbie Farms in Healdsburg, California.
After 18 plus years of experience with horses and multiple disciplines, he has found himself on the path [00:02:00] of enlightened classical French dressage studying with Master I, Dominique and Deborah Barbiere and their assistant trainer, Lauren Schultz. He is also a teacher and long-term practitioner of yoga and find its philosophies to be highly beneficial to the practice of horsemanship.
Wow. I'm so excited. There's so much here between your experience at Barbie Farms talking about enlightened, classical, French dressage, , just some of that. What does that mean? Your experience with yoga and embodiment.
We had some really rich conversations over that, in a Facebook group, so I'm just excited to talk to you some more and share your, your wisdom and experience with other people too. This is beautiful.
Jacob: Thank you. Yeah. I'm thrilled to be here and to be talking with both of you too.
it's a pleasure.
Joshua: Well, if you wouldn't mind, we will hit the rewind button and go back a little bit.
Jacob's Early Passion for Horses
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Joshua: what first drew you to horses and, you know, how'd you get
Jacob: started on this [00:03:00] path? Well, I've always loved horses it was not something that was that anyone else in my family is really that interested in, other than my older sister a little bit.
The only way I can really say it is that when I was like about 12 years old, I just started getting really adamant about wanting to. Be around horses. It just kind of came outta nowhere. It was not something that I, I can't say that I saw anyone inspiring thing that just sent me over the edge with that.
It was just a feeling that I had, that I wanted to work with horses. And then, so from there, I, I was convincing enough that, and my parents are supportive enough that they entertained it. actually, my very first horse that I ever had was a two year old Morgan Ma. Wow. She was a hot and spicy little thing.
And I learned so much from her. I had a really, uh, the per, the, the woman that I purchased her from was very knowledgeable and helped me a lot. Thankfully , but you know, interesting way to get started. We [00:04:00] made just all the mistakes you can make together and might not be the easiest way to get going, I would not trade that for anything.
Mm-hmm. , I learned so much.
Diverse Training Experiences
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Jacob: And then from there I I rode, I rode with a lot of different people. I did the kind of, Typical start for most people, I think in the US anyway with four H. And got involved with that really quickly realized I did not fit into that crowd very well which I'm gonna consider a blessing now, but just because some of the politics going on in the show world, I'm sure you both know.
It's just, it's a lot for someone who's a little bit more sensitive to deal with. So, that's how I got started. And then I very quickly found a trainer. Her name's Andrea Parker and she's a dressage writer. And she was just coming into her Grand Prix experience, I guess you could say, with her, with her horse first Grand Prix horse that she ever had.
And I just remember watching her ride one day and something clicked for me and I really [00:05:00] just wanted to get a taste of that. So I started taking lessons with her and following her around , everywhere she was going all over the bar, I just wouldn't leave her alone. So that eventually turned into a little bit of like an informal apprenticeship where I would go spend all day let's see. After that I came in touch with another trainer who was more, she's Western background and worked with Ray Hunt a bit and was kind of into the the bridal horse world. And she, I would say she taught me how to have a little bit more fun with all of this and got me a little more connected with the animal, I would say on a deeper, more intuitive level.
So, those were my, my two main teachers. And so I've ridden, I've ridden some Western, I've ridden cutting horses before. I've done a ton of trail riding. Some, you know, showing in both like hunt seat, western pleasure, just kind of got taste of everything. And [00:06:00] slowly but surely started looking for something a little bit deeper.
Hmm mm you know, a bit of a journey .
Joshua: What a rich collection of experiences. That was all in childhood, basically, right? Like teenage
Jacob: years and, yeah, teenage years.
Breaks and Returns to Horsemanship
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Jacob: I took a bit of a break from riding in my late teens, early Twentie.
And then got back into it and then got back out of it for a little while. That happened a couple of times where I would go a couple of years without touching a horse at all. And actually, I, I would not trade that really for anything. I think that a lot of the experience and time that I had away from horses actually enriched my experience with horses when I came back to them.
Can you
Victoria: speak to maybe and you don't have to come up with an actual like, for sure, but what do you think that is? Because I think that's fascinating
Jacob: Well, I think a lot of, you know, a lot of working with horses is so mental. I mean, it can be. And if you're willing to go there.
[00:07:00] And for myself, all the times that I stopped riding, which was maybe two or three I never stopped thinking about it. I thought about it every day. There was even times where I was like, oh, I'm not gonna do anything with this in my life. You know what? But I, I just never stopped thinking about it.
It's like that quiet voice in the back of your mind that's always telling you to look again at something that, it was doing that with the horses for me, I would say. So I would think about writing almost every day. You know, I, I actually don't think that there was a day that I didn't think about it, so I was just developing, I think that more mental aspect of it, that feeling and, and those inner images that I now come to realize are so important,
If you're really interested in something and you, you want it to make, when I say you, I mean like the proverbial proverbial you. And you want to make it like a central part of your life. I think it's a really good test to step away from it for a while. I think it gives a good perspective, at least it did for.
[00:08:00] That's good. Yeah. Yeah.
Joshua: I can relate to that in other parts of my life too. Like with music, I would kind of was really obsessed with it and then would kind of find myself being away from it. And then you sit back down and do your art and it just feels like richer. And I was even kind of surprised.
I was like, wait, I thought I had to practice like hours a day to keep improving, but I feel like I'm like better than I was so there is something going on in the mind, right. With that, the way your psyche processes information and makes associations, it's like you continue training in your mind and, and I know that's a big part of your tradition now.
Yeah. Which I, and believe me, I want to just jump right ahead and just get like, what, tell me everything about working at the Barbie and all this visualization power. But I wanna ask you before I forget, you, you mentioned when you're working with the other lady who had studied with Ray Hunt a little bit mm-hmm.
that she kind of helped you discover some joy and Yeah. Have more [00:09:00] fun with it. I was just wondering if you could share a little more about that. Like what, what did you mean and what did she do to do that?
Jacob: Yeah, so let me step back a little bit. Actually, when I was telling that story, I realized I actually met her at around the same time, if not slightly before the dressage trainer too.
So they were kind of fused together. I would kind of go work with. Then go work with the other. And that happened a bit for, I mean, that happened quite a bit for a few years. But anyway, she she just noticed I think right away that I was just based on some of the experiences that I had with my young horse and with, although the person I was working with initially was very knowledgeable she, I think put a lot, she could see that I was capable of things and therefore kind of put a lot of stuff together with me quickly.
Maybe things that I wasn't ready for necessarily. So, I would take my horse out to this woman's place. Her name was Starla. She would just watch me working with my horse. And I think she just realized really quickly that it was all very way too [00:10:00] serious. I mean, I was long lining this three year old Morgan, and there was no connection happening at all.
all this stuff going on, all this equipment, all this bullshit, to be honest, you know, I don't have a better way of saying it right now, but mm-hmm. , she just realized really quickly like, oh, you, you need to connect and you need to relax and you need to have fun. So we didn't do any, any technical stuff.
We just went on trail rides for quite a while, you know? Hmm. And little lessons would come out.
Joshua: Wow. What a great teacher. That's, that's beautiful.
Jacob: She's amazing. Yeah. .
Joshua: And was this all in Washington, Jacob? Mm-hmm. . Okay. Yeah.
Jacob: Yeah. Central Washington. And then I
Victoria: was gonna ask about, I think her name was Andrea, the, the dressage writer that you worked with.
When you said you saw her one day, or maybe it was a series of days, but what was it that, clicked for you that you were like, I have to spend time with her and learn about what she's doing and how she's writing?
Jacob: I would just say there is just a general beauty about it. I mean, [00:11:00] watching it, that the aesthetic was remarkable.
I was totally confused by it. Like, how does she do that? So I think it raised this big question in me of, of wanting to understand how, how someone can sit on a horse and get all of these amazing things to happen. Yeah. when you see something really beautiful, you know it it strikes you in the right way.
You step back and you think about it a little bit. it was one of those moments. .
Victoria: Nice. Wow. Yeah. That resonates for me too. I, I remember having many of those throughout my young life with horses and Yeah. It was first the beauty or the thing that sort of captures your imagination that you're seeing, and then it's the curiosity.
Yeah. Like how, like how did they, how are they doing that? I, I gotta know. Yeah, totally.
Daily Life at Barbie Farms
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Joshua: Maybe we could jump forward a little bit just to take a snapshot of like a present day, in your life. I know you're down in Healdsburg
Jacob: right now, ,
Joshua: Which, you know, Healdsburg to us [00:12:00] is like paradise.
So I, I just love hearing anything about it, . But you're also, and just to set the scene for our listeners, like Barbie, our Farms is this beautiful arena set behind a vineyard of wine grapes, , bordering like a, a salmon run
Jacob: creek and a canyon all and a,
Joshua: a canyon rolling hills, just
Jacob: like a dry canyon.
Victoria: But then there's this beautiful river running through it.
Joshua: There's wine and cheese and just like fresh food happening everywhere. Beautiful, interesting, kind people. So it's just to set the scene.
Jacob: But yeah, , I did not know that salmon ran through that river, actually. That's very interesting. Somebody
Joshua: told me that at the symposium.
I was mentioning how cool it is. There's like literally a creek on the property and he said, oh yeah. And it's really protected because it's a salmon run. So, cuz you know, drought is such a concern in California, but that's a very protected river right there,
Jacob: so. Wow, that's cool. . So yeah, a typical day [00:13:00] would be that I go to this beautiful place that you just described so well.
And it's a gorgeous drive there. Every day when I drive there I'm just like, I'm so lucky to get to, to drive up this road every day. So I get, I usually get to the barn like around nine or 10 in the morning. And the assistant trainer, Lauren is mostly in charge of running the day-to-day in the barn along with Deborah.
Dominique's wife and I get there and it's very, it's none of, it's really very planned to be honest with you. We just kind of look at each other and go, what are we doing today? And I usually ride my two or three courses a day. I've been really lucky lately to, to get to ride that much. it's not really very planned.
So I'll stay, I'll stick around and I'll ride and help out with whatever they need help with. And it's just very fluid that way. There's no real structure to it other than just being there and absorbing and every, you know, everything that we do is very intentional there, right down to getting the horse ready in the stall.
You know, that was actually when I came here as [00:14:00] a working student, that was my very first lesson was how they move the horse in the stall. So we get the horses ready in the stall. We don't tie them unless they, you know, they're new at it and need to be tied, but we move them from wall to wall.
And that's an important thing with stallions in particular. We do have a lot of stallions at the barn. And so stallion handling is something that a person needs to be aware of that if they're working there. But, but really it's the beginning of how you form the communication with the horse in the, in the working hand.
As I'm sure that you did some of that Yes. When you came and, uh, did it intensive with the Barbies.
Victoria: Yeah. The work in hand. Yeah, it was, it was really, really amazing. Yeah.
Jacob: Yeah. So that was my first lesson. We've just I moved the horse back and forth in the stall.
The Importance of Groundwork
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Jacob: So I guess I point in saying that is that the, that thread of I'm gonna say like more sensitive thinking or approach to working with the horses is in everything that we do there.
Mm-hmm. ,
Victoria: I think that's [00:15:00] just, I just wanna take a second and just let that soak in, right. Because something that I've noticed over the years and something I'm really trying to articulate better with our students is the importance of, the on the ground stuff, in your routines, in your preparing your horse and getting them, you know, ready to do whatever your work session is gonna be that day.
Like, I feel like, and the way I learned as a kid, and even when I was app apprenticing as a professional there's a mindlessness to that part. It was get it done, especially as a, an apprentice at a, show barn, it was like, get it done as fast as you can. There's no time for anything other than get the horse ready.
And I've just been really trying to figure out that piece of like the second you enter that horse's vortex of energy, the second you're in presence with them,
Jacob: we call it the horse field. Yeah. . [00:16:00] I just have to throw that out the horse field. Yes,
Victoria: it's true. And that's when it all begins. And to have sort of a very mindful routine that is organic and, and sort of living and dynamic, but also very clear and and articulate and, meaningful I love that.
Jacob: Yeah. Yeah. one of the people that I worked with before the, the, the, uh, woman that worked with Ray Hans ait, she taught me a lot of that as well. Mm-hmm. . So I, it was actually a very refreshing feeling to go there in the first day, have them. emphasize the importance of that.
Mm-hmm. , a pretty good indicator to me that I was in the right place. Because I know exactly that feeling that you're talking about. And now actually having gone into the world worked with, working with some horses and coming back here I almost can't do it if I'm in a situation where that's happening.
That's something that I viscerally disagree with. Almost like it, I will not go further with a horse until I've established some form of communication on the ground. [00:17:00] Cuz it is amazing to see the disconnect there and, and it happens a lot. Yeah.
Joshua: One of those things, once you see it, you can't unsee it and in this case, unfeel it.
Right? Exactly. Yeah. We felt like we had to get away from more performance centric work and we enjoyed working with kids. We'd done some horse camps and stuff in the summer and we thought, okay, let's do that. There was a need for it in our community, and, that was one of the things they really taught us was the kids.
The kids, yeah. They would just, they were in no hurry. Right. They just loved hanging out with the horses. They weren't necessarily. In a hurry to get to the arena and ride, even though they had a limited time. You could just see like the co-regulation between the kids and the horses happening and what they really connected and then the horses took care of the kids, even though their balance wasn't that good.
They were giving imperfect cues of course, but there was just this interplay that happened it was just like such a great demonstration of how you build that relationship and communication and affinity, you know, before [00:18:00] you really ask anything. and that was a really beautiful display.
And then, then of course when we visited you guys down in Healdsburg,
Jacob: there was just this air
Joshua: of of mindful presence it was kinda lacking the intensity that I was expecting a little bit of just knowing the caliber of horses there and the calibers of achievement and knowledge that was there, I expected there to be a little more intensity, But it was just so peaceful. Everybody was so focused, almost monk-like, you know, it was just kind of this inward vibe and realizing that that was how you guys were connecting to the horses was really beautiful to see.
Jacob: That's so cool, and I love that you picked up on it so quickly.
Victoria: I looked at Josh and I'm like, how is this po?
Like, I didn't know this. Places like this existed and we were tripping. and it was of course like a dream come true, but like the key that made it so special was the caliber of horsemanship too. I mean, I think I've been around a lot of people who, you know, wanna just be in contact with horses and then there the level of actual [00:19:00] horsemanship is a little like, okay you know, there's not gonna be anything happening that's high level or sort of inspiring in terms of what we're gonna see happen between horses and humans.
Yeah. And, that was what was so amazing. It was this, this beautiful energy that was just like so relaxed and grounded, but then also sort of mystical. Mm-hmm. . And it was just, I just was kinda like, didn't know what to think the whole time. I was like, yeah, do, how are they doing this? Like, , how are they getting away with this?
Like, they just are like having fun with horses, but still like doing this amazing, beautiful level of horsemanship that's beyond anything that is, that I even thought was possible. So yeah, it, it was just very, I'm fangirling a little bit,
Jacob: but . Yeah. that's how I feel too, being there.
I mean, , it's, it's pretty amazing.
Joshua: So I'm curious if we could, this might be a big, big question, [00:20:00] but, so you had those experiences when you were younger, really cool. Diversity sounds like some good mentors. What in you made you attracted to this path of enlightened French classical writing.
what caused you to seek that? Cause that's
Jacob: really unique. Okay, so for me
Joshua: that is a big question. That's a big one. Yeah, I know .
Jacob: For me, okay, so if you look back at or if we look back at kind of the two different mentors that I had, there was a bit of, there was a contrast between the two for sure.
One was very technical highly encouraging, very nice person to be around, but very technical. And then the other one was like totally the opposite. Wonderful person again. Very feel-based, very very in tune. Not technical at all, really. Not. , not even to the point, to the point where sometimes I was almost a little frustrated because I knew she could do so much more, but she just didn't care to.
So for me it's always kind of been about balancing those things about understanding some of the more nuanced [00:21:00] pieces of it all. But, but lightness has always been the thing that I've been after. Maybe what I didn't even know what to call it. It was something that I always aspired to have that feeling.
And I noticed a lot in dressage that that wasn't actually happening. It's talked about a lot. You even see people having moments of loosening their reigns, you know, and things like that. But it's all still very held. And you can see that. And actually a lot of times the less, you know, technically, the more you can see.
It has been my experience. When I talk with people that don't know anything about it, they'll watch that type of a thing and then they'll watch someone in real lightness and they can see the difference. so for me, it was just something I was always after. And when I came across some old videos of Dominique, I saw it right away.
And I saw this amazing blend of, that connection and sensitivity and. Let's almost say like, not the, no need to achieve anything really [00:22:00] blended with this, like, highly skilled work, right. Yeah.
Joshua: I I, no, we both relate have, that's basically similar to what Victoria was just speaking to what we saw there.
It was like this paradox of this incredible lightness mm-hmm. combined with such a high level of skill. Yeah. it was affirming to like, okay, this really is possible. And I know Victoria, one of the, one of the things that you said that really touched me after we were there was that she just felt like the horses were fully expressing themselves.
And, and I've heard you speak to that too. Mm-hmm. .
Jacob: Yeah. It's so true. I mean, you have to let go, so to speak, and get out of the way in order for that, for the horse to really come through and express themselves. And that's really what we're. What I'm learning to do here. That's what, that's what it's all about.
Really.
Victoria: So exciting. I'm so happy for you. Yeah. . Like I am, like I wish, I just, I mean, the part of me is like, I wish I could do that, and maybe someday I will, but [00:23:00] I'm, that's why it's like so wonderful to know you and be like, yes, you're doing it . You're fully there learning the thing that we all have been searching for.
Yeah. Those of us who kind of have always been seeking that.
Jacob: And I think that it's just such a gift that Dominique is willing to talk about it because I think there are other people out there who, who have found it. But they don't talk about it on the same level. They don't just get outta the point and say, look, it's, it's internal.
It's not something that you can do out here technically with your legs or your hands or your seat even. I'm just gonna say bravery to talk about it that way. Mm. That I think has made it possible for me to, you know, for people to even pursue that in a more intentional way.
Yeah. Yeah,
Joshua: yeah. Well said. Yeah. It's powerful. Right? And because of his bravery, like we met, we're having this discussion, right? We talked to students of ours, we're always talking about things we saw down there, and it was just, you know, I guess two days and then we went [00:24:00] back. So it was very like, short amount of days, but it had such an impact, and that reverberates through now creates so many connections.
And I know he's been doing it so long, it's kind of interesting too, like different arts, even some religions, like different just philosophical schools of thought. there tends to be a thread. It's kind of hidden, almost like a mystic order where there's sort of these joyful people who are just really absorbed in the practice and really getting out of the way.
And, there are certain qualities of that. One of that is an openness to share. Mm-hmm. . a lack of ego. You know? There's a few qualities that are really rare, that was something that struck us too. I mean, we're going down to wine country in Healdsburg, a bunch of Luci tunnel stallions, a French classical tradition,
We expected there to be a little more hoy to Right. You know? And. really we, we didn't get it Not from Dominique, that's for sure. Yeah. or Deborah or any of you guys. Yeah. It was really beautiful.
Jacob: Yeah. Lauren was just, she, [00:25:00] yeah, Lauren's
Victoria: amazing. She was just so open and kind and generous and low key about everything. It really was like, huh, we don't have to feel any way, but just be here right now
Jacob: There's like an understated quality to it that I find to be more attractive yeah.
Yeah. Beautiful.
Joshua: Maybe we could pivot a little bit to your yoga background.
The Influence of Yoga on Horsemanship
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Joshua: we thought and talked about you a lot after we saw you and know, we've been on Instagram a bunch lately, which is totally new for us. And I saw Yogi Jake. followed us and I was like, oh, who, who is that? And I clicked on, I was like, oh my God, that's Jake from Harveys
And I instantly like, sent you a message cuz I. Was hoping to find that a way to reconnect with you. I was just curious where you're at and what you're up to. And that was the first time I knew that you're a yoga guy, but it made perfect sense cuz watching you ride even just the way you hold yourself, you have this lightness and alignment.
And I have a background in, in body work and bio mechanics and stuff, so, as I'm slouching in the chair, but so [00:26:00] I, I saw that in you and it really made sense of oh, he's into yoga. And then we talked a little bit before this and you had cool associations between yoga and, horsemanship and that lightness and balance.
How did you even find yoga and how did that, how did that happen?
Jacob: When I was
early twenties, I decided to move to Alaska for a year. My sister lived there just to try some new place and it's there in the winter and we, uh, started going to hot yoga. That was like really the first ever experience I had with the yoga class. it's not something I would do anymore.
Really go into the heat like that for myself. It's not something I en enjoy. It was like a really good introduction to, to yoga. I had a real, there were the teacher there, the studio owner was amazing. I started to feel something. And I just kind of put that in my back pocket. I wasn't sure what I was gonna do with that.
And then when I came back to Washington I kept looking for places to, to practice. I found a couple of places. But I just wanted more. I'm just [00:27:00] that type of person too, and I find something interesting. I want to really sync my teeth into it. And so I started looking for teacher trainings and . I was online a lot, looking at a whole bunch of different ones.
I had a friend who lived in Kauai who I wanted to go hang out with cuz she's in Kauai. And uh, I thought, okay, I'll do one of these like eight week programs where I go for like three days a week or something, and then I can just hang out with my friend on the island. there were some of those available.
And then I came across another one where it was, an intensive month long. You don't leave the little compound, so to speak. Mm. It was, it seemed very serious. It seemed very potent, but I was kind of resistant actually to it cuz I was, had this other, whole other expectation in my mind of how I was gonna do all of this.
But I kept going back to the website. I kept going back and reading about it and finally it's just clicked for me, like, okay, you should do this. Something just like my logical mind wasn't there, but something else was pushing me to, to keep [00:28:00] looking at the information on their website. So I stumbled into a training with a woman who is just an incredible teacher, uh, an incredible master in her own right.
And I spent a few years going back and forth assisting her in her trainings and very similar actually to what I'm doing with the Barbies now. It's kind of funny. so I spent a lot of time with her and the more grounded I got, the more centered I got. The horses actually did start to creep back into my consciousness a little bit.
I was having dreams, I was having. Just feelings and insights about horses and horsemanship and beginning to relate a lot of what I was learning physically in my body to, to riding, but also some of the more internal work was feeling like it made sense to apply to horses. So then I ended up getting a little project horse that I wasn't really looking for, but someone just sent me a message and said, Hey, you should check this horse out.
It came from an auction and it just like needs someone to work with it for a while. So I sneaked her up. She was really inexpensive [00:29:00] and actually a really nice horse. I was like, I don't know what I'm doing here. I have no plan. But I, uh, began to realize pretty quickly that something was working better for me than it had in the past.
And it had a lot to do with the practices that I was doing. and just being present and being grounded put me in a place of naturally asking the question, what do you need? Hmm. To the horse I made that sort of my. Core pursuit with this animal was just to sleuth out, like, how can I help you?
And that was really effective and I, I was not working with any specific technique. I wasn't working within any specific discipline. I was just seeing what was possible. And that really, that put some things together for me. Got me thinking a little bit more about the association for me between yoga, philosophy and horsemanship.
Wow. What do you need? What do you need? Yeah.
Joshua: Yeah. we encourage people to think of a mantra or a [00:30:00] self-affirming statement when they're working with horses, and of course it can change, but that, that's a beautiful one. What do you need? I, I never thought of that before, but that's,
Jacob: oh yeah.
Joshua: That's really nice. .
Jacob: Yeah. I mean, it was very organic. I just, it just fell into my lap and I think it was meant to be, it was a really good moment for me to realize like, oh, okay, yeah, you actually do Have some, something potentially to offer within this realm, of horsemanship.
So, since then it's been more of a pursuit of wanting to get more reconnected with horses and figuring out what I want to do with them.
Joshua: So if I'm hearing you correct, like your arc, you, you kind of were away from horses when you were really into yoga and then you literally were having dreams and making associations and then you came back to horses.
Yeah. And
Victoria: this horse just miraculously
Jacob: weird. Pretty much. I mean, pretty much,
Joshua: you, and you traded the cushy Kauai experience for the more hardcore, like, let's really get [00:31:00] into this.
Jacob: Yeah. . Yeah. I still ask myself sometimes why I'm not in Kauai sitting on a cushion, but you know, that's a
Victoria: question.
I mean, that's, that's
Joshua: I mean, it's only a month program and I think it still maybe could happen. .
Jacob: We'll join you. Let's, let's go. let's make a plan.
Joshua: What, what tradition of yoga did you
Jacob: learn, Jacob? So, that's another interesting question. So Yoga's kind of funny that way, like there's a lot of different styles and things, but really they all sort of boil down to the same thing.
what she called what she did was, Raja yoga, which Raja just means like,
it can mean a lot of different things like the royal path or the let's say that the enlightenment path. It's more focused on meditation, although, so yoga is a a balance of different limbs. There are eight limbs in yoga, and I can't name them all right now because my brain doesn't work that way.
But there are eight limbs. One of 'em is meditation, one of them is pranayama, working with the [00:32:00] breath. And prana also means life force energy. So they use the breath as a bridge to getting into the subtle body a little bit more. Asana, which is the postures, which, what, what most people think of when they think of yoga.
The yamas and the niyamas, which is more of an ethical look at yoga. There's another one that I can't think of the name of, but it has to do with working with the senses. And then Samati, which is like ultimate absor. . So she really placed a focus on all of these things. the practices were very long.
We would wake up at 4:00 AM and we would have a little fire ceremony where we would do mantra for like 40 minutes or so. And at first you just sit there and listen cause you dunno what anyone is saying. But then you start to pick up on it and you would just organically start chanting.
So we would do that and then, and then we would do our PMA and meditation practice, which was another hour. And then we would have breakfast, and then we would come back and do Asana. So it was a very [00:33:00] potent experience. It was very contained. It was not easy. It was meant to shake people apart and help them transform.
So it was intense in that, in that regard. So, yeah. Anyway, I digress a little bit, but she, uh, she is a, a Raja. .
Joshua: That's great. I just wanna really make that clear to a lot of people. Cuz a lot of us, when we hear the word yoga, we just think about doing stretches, you know? Yeah. And, and, and what you're saying is, the word yoga traditionally is a combination of eight things and the stretching is, is one of them.
Yeah. But it's not at all the main thing. in fact, and correct me if I'm mistaken, but it's really kind of balance between the eight limbs, like the practice of yoga itself.
Jacob: Yeah, totally. And a lot of us will find our way in through one or two limbs, you know? Mm-hmm. But then you start to realize that that one thing that you're doing actually encompasses all of these other things, so it just works together that way.
It, there's no way that it can't, if you really, if you really [00:34:00] are interested in going deeper with it, eventually you'll start asking yourself questions that lead you to those other limbs.
Joshua: Wonderful. I I'm already seeing some parallels to horsemanship there. Exactly. That there's, it's not like one thing, you know, it's, it takes all these things and, yeah.
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Joshua: you had mentioned to us when we talked before that [00:35:00] your yoga teacher destroyed your life, , . And the context was, it was a very positive thing. ,
Jacob: Yeah, that's actually a quote from a different Yogi, His name's Richard Freeman and he's someone that I, uh, admire a lot.
but she did actually do the same thing. So he, he likes to say, uh, yoga, yoga destroys your life. But what he means is that, well, let's just say like even on a physical level, you, when you start to open up the body like tight shoes are no longer comfortable. Pants that don't stretch are no longer comfortable.
Chairs that sit you back too much are no longer comfortable, things like that. So, and then beyond that, when you begin to develop what I like to call the economist mind, that centered place, you're no longer that interesting to argue with. You don't have like a real firm opinion on much. You tend to kinda exist in the middle of things, and that can frustrate people.
It just kind of tears apart a lot of the like, socially constructed things about, you know, being [00:36:00] human. So in that way it kind of ruins your. , let's say your superficial life .
Joshua: similar to when you saw Dominique and Lauren and, Deborah ride. Right. You said like you couldn't really go back.
Exactly.
Jacob: Yeah, exactly. You can't say, you can no longer ignore certain things that you, that you would've ignored by ignorance before. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. And so then with that kind of comes like a newfound sense of responsibility too. That you, at least for me, you can't, I can't really ignore it. I suppose you could make that choice.
I don't know that it would be easy though, to go back To a, let's say like a less vibrational way of being.
Victoria: Yeah. I think, I think that's, that's kind of what the heart of what we're talking about today. Even. I mean, I know for us, the kids program was a major catalyst, but there's been many in terms of our horse life, many things along the way that have, just like once you see horses relating to kids [00:37:00] when kids aren't putting any.
Expectations on the interaction. You can't unsee that once you see how the horses start to give themselves and, and how they think and feel to the kids. And it's this beautiful inner, but you can't, you can't go back. Yeah.
Jacob: You can't ignore that. And, and I think a lot of horse people do see that. Like, I mean, I've, I've experienced that a lot with horses that having ridden horses that I would've considered to be difficult in the past and then watching a little kid get on 'em and the horse just takes care of that.
Right? Because they, all of that baggage is not there and they're not really expecting anything. It's they're just wanting to connect, you know? Yeah. It's hard to ignore that once you see it. I think a lot of times we don't really know what's happening and therefore we don't think much of it.
Like that's how it was in the past anyway. For me, it was like, oh, why is that horse so good with that little kid? But not with that with me . It takes a certain, I think you have to be at a certain [00:38:00] place in your mind to ask the question of why is that? . You know, . Yeah. Because it does happen all the time.
I
Joshua: mean, , it's just, it's funny.
Jacob: It's one of those things that it's like, I wish most people pick up on that . It's
Victoria: almost like a law. It's like a, a universal law And I would see my horses, these were school horses. Do things for kids, perform or move in ways that I had never seen them move too.
It wasn't like they were just packing the kids and keeping 'em safe. Mm-hmm. I would start to see them, you would start to see them like, you know, trot the most, you know, magnificent, beautiful trot I'd ever seen that horse do. I didn't even know that horse was capable of trotting that way. Mm-hmm. . it wasn't just that they were oh, kids and just like packing 'em around, which mm-hmm.
There was some of that too, but yeah, there was, there was some of what I think I've seen when I saw you ride and when I see, you know, any of the Barbie it's like that, I don't know, [00:39:00] it's like an innocence or like a purity. Yeah.
Jacob: Mm-hmm. . That's cool. .
Breathwork and Its Benefits
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Joshua: I'm wondering we practice breath work. things like box breathing or just using equal time inhale and exhale you said pranayama is the breath limb of yoga.
Mm-hmm. . And I'm wondering if you could share with us what your experience with that, how that translates to horses and if there was something you could recommend to people that maybe aren't gonna go do like an immersion yoga experience and teacher train for two years. Like, do you have any tips for just.
Normal people that want to use breath work with horses. And why do you think it works? There's like five questions, but
Jacob: Well, no, no, I, that's wonderful. the way I think about it is the breath. So pr, yama, the term prana means like life force energy, which is what makes up it from a yolk point of view.
That's what makes up everything. Everything has a vibration, you know. [00:40:00] But the breath for us, having this human experience in a body is one of the main bridges to experiencing that subtle, this is what I call the subtle body. And because breath in and of itself is also prana or, you know, air is prana, so you're working with this, this other force, pulling it in and out of the body in an intentional way.
So
to back that up a little bit it is very regulating to the nervous system as I'm sure that you, if you are working with things like box, box breathing, uh, equal timing of inhalation and exhalation, all of those things, You are getting in touch with the nervous system in a deeper way and beginning to learn how to regulate a nervous system which is also involved with the subtle body.
You know, so the things that you just mentioned are really great places to start. Just getting an idea of, counting your inhale and exhale. It's very interesting once you start to do that, you kind of realize like, oh, I take [00:41:00] a bigger inhale than an exhale, or I take a, you know, a short, choppy inhale or whatever it may be.
You start to notice those things because you have some sort of metric for it. You know, you have some way of measuring it. There are, the other thing that I would recommend doing is lengthening the exhale more than the inhale. So the exhale in general is kind of associated with the parasympathetic nervous system. Ah Sympathetic nervous system, which is more fight or flight, correct me if I'm wrong. Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. , it's gonna be more associated with the inhale, you know, what do you do when you're afraid?
You usually go, you know, , right? So if you're needing to calm down a little bit, lengthening the exhale is a really good place to start. You can get it up to twice. As long as you're inhale, then you're doing some really good work.
Joshua: Oh, wow. Okay. And that's a pretty big ratio. Yeah.
Jacob: Yeah. So, and you can start with like, as short as when I'm really nervous and out of whack and a little bit heightened, or if I've been drinking too much coffee for [00:42:00] too many days, I take that ratio down and, or I don't take the ratio down, but I take the countdown.
I'll, I'm maybe only inhale for four seconds and exhale for eight seconds. It should never be a strain, right? If you're, if you're reaching within your body, if you're holding, if you're making weird sounds, you're doing too much. So it should be easy. It should be a step behind one or two steps behind your edge of what is comfortable so that your body can begin to assimilate that.
you can work your way up. I mean, I know people that. , really long breath counts. Hmm. Beyond that, once you have some experience with that and some, a good relationship with the breath, then you, you can start working with retentions of the breath holding the inhale, holding the exhale. Mm-hmm.
that needs to be done in a very relaxed frame of mind. Again, like no holding, because that's going to cause a different effect. And what that, what that kind of does is it works a little bit more with that fight or flight response. feeling [00:43:00] like a lack of oxygen is kind of scary. A lot of times the body will be like, oh my gosh, you have to breathe, but really you have a lot longer than you think.
I would say a little bit more of a mental space. It also works a little bit with gaining some, let's say experience with the more intrinsic muscle groups like the pelvic floor, the diaphragm, the soft palette is one as well. Mm-hmm. . Those are all kind of areas of the body that I said last time we spoke, that they have a certain intelligence of their own.
And when you start to work with the breath and open the breath up, you start to realize that those areas in the body actually work with the. In a a very interesting way. So sometimes retaining the breath is a way to feel those centers of the body as well.
Joshua: that's a great nuanced way to explain that.
That's, that's awesome. Thank you. Gosh, you, you said something earlier. You said a couple things that I wanted to, like put a little, little emphasis on . A lot of things I'm just gonna [00:44:00] try to remember too. One was bringing that sense of ease to the practice. Yes. and I thought that's, that applies to horsemanship, right?
Like as soon as you feel strained or you feel a little anxiety, or like, you're having to try too hard or putting too much pressure to get the result you want, like just to, shift down a gear is one way to say it. Kind take your RPMs and bring 'em down. And, and we might hear like a great, you know, yoga person or somebody on YouTube is doing a two minute breath hold and we're like, I'm gonna do this, and, you know, but you're straining and it's hard.
So I like that it kind of just goes back to like self-care, like self-love too. work with your body. the whole point of the stuff is to. enhance embodiment and to feel connected through your body. And we really believe that's how you communicate to horses too, is like through, through our bodies, right?
Because that's sort of a love language of horses. Or maybe love language isn't even the right way to say, it's just kind of how they are.
Jacob: the language. [00:45:00] The
Joshua: language . Yeah. The language of forces.
Jacob: Yeah. Yeah, totally. It's important not to push yourself. And I mean, I've done it. I still sometimes do that.
We all do. It's more about recognizing it when it happens and, and having the tools to step back. And a lot of that has to do with just with the ego too, and, and feeling like we need to accomplish something or some sort of a stamp on whatever it is we're doing. That's really where the practices can actually have like a negative effect.
They can damage you. The whole point of those practices really like in working with the subtle body. And when we talk about things like the subtle body in prana, it's building your energy up. It's like I, I've once heard in someone describe it this way, it's like you're creating really fertile soil essentially, if you want to think about it as in that term and whatever you plant is gonna grow.
faster, right. Based on those practices. So you have to be kind of working with, your intentions, with your, with your ego, with that inner voice and just checking yourself [00:46:00] all the time, you know?
Joshua: Wow. the practice itself helps you develop that awareness
Jacob: Yeah. To mm-hmm. and for some people, some people need more guidance with that than others, you know?
Like you, you had mentioned in our previous conversation that you like to, referenced Star Wars a lot, which I love, but it's the same thing, like, you've got the dark side in, in the light side.
Exploring the Force in Star Wars
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Jacob: Yes. This is a really kind of like, simple way of looking at it, but like, they're both using the force
Right. And one of, one of them is damaging themselves with it, and the other one is healing themselves with it.
Victoria: Whoa. That's good. That's, that's upping our Star Wars game
Jacob: there. There'll,
Joshua: we'll have to borrow that for , our Star Wars
Jacob: vault I can't remember exactly how it went, but they were describing Darth Vader as so someone explaining, I think to their kid, like who was saying, oh, they look really, he looks really scary, and he.
Inside that scary costume is, is a really scared little boy with a lot of really big feelings that he didn't know how to [00:47:00] express . Yeah. I love that. I with, I thought it was hilarious, but it's true.
Joshua: yeah. That's wonderful.
Breath Work and Stress Tolerance
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Joshua: The, the other thing I wanted to, to highlight a little bit that you said too was that sort of a paradox between not straining and using the practice of breath work just to actually train your response to, a stimulus in this case, like holding the breath can kind of trigger, a sense of panic or just alarm.
And that by practicing that it's kind of a safe way to move out your threshold to use like a sports training analogy. You're kind of training the curve, moving the curve out a little bit and increasing your ability to tolerate stress. You know, like cold therapies like been all the rage for a couple years thanks to Wim Hoff's stuff.
That's basically the operating principle behind that too is like if you can train yourself to tolerate, even though that's very hard and that actually does involve some, some tension. So, in that paradox. And we were, we were just listening, is it [00:48:00] Richard? Mm-hmm. , Richard Roar.
Roar. R o e
Jacob: r, actually r o h r. Okay.
Joshua: R o h r. He was on Brene Brown's podcast. He's like a Franciscan monk. I think he's maybe 80. Just incredible to check it out. I think he'd love it, but
Victoria: So good. Two
Joshua: parts. they had a whole talk about paradox and he was saying in a lot of like, you know, one of the ways they measure the truth of something is like, there should be a lot of paradox involved, you know, and mm-hmm.
we talk about yoga and horsemanship. I mean, it's paradox city, right? Yeah.
Jacob: All the way. That's really interesting. Mm-hmm. . .
Joshua: Oh
Victoria: my gosh. Very rich stuff.
Yoga and Horsemanship: A Paradoxical Relationship
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Victoria: Jake, you and Josh were on Facebook you had a very lovely conversation going on Facebook in our group.
Joshua: Talk about paradox. I mean, technology, right? We resisted it for so long, but we're able to connect and have all these amazing conversations
Jacob: now.
Victoria: Yeah. And you and exactly, and I was just sort of watching it from the periphery for a minute. But you [00:49:00] guys were talking about the intersection of yoga and horses and throughout the years we've seen yoga and horses start to become a thing and you see people, basically what I've seen mostly is people stretching on horses.
Mm-hmm. . And it's not something that I've ever been really called or interested in. Mm-hmm. And no judgment on folks that are doing that. But it always seems to me, just for my personal lens it sort of using the horses as sort of objects or props or tools you too started talking about it.
And I would love to hear you talk more about what you were saying in the
Joshua: Facebook video. We, we pulled your quote out actually, cuz I thought it was really genius. It was beautiful. , and Jacob said, . Yeah. If we want our equine partners to be well adjusted, expressive, self-caring beings that we ourselves must do our best to embody those same qualities.
Gaining a [00:50:00] general autonomy and equanimity of mind and body will allow us to be truly available for the horse, the less we are in the way. , the more they can offer
Jacob: to us.
Victoria: Can you say more about that please? ?
The Essence of Yoga in Horse Riding
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Jacob: in context to like what you were saying about using the horse a little bit as a prop it's not something that I'm particularly interested in either.
I don't I can see where someone would go that way. And, I think unfortunately, and I'd be curious to hear other opinions on this, but mm-hmm. from my, from my perspective it's a little bit of a misunderstanding of what yoga is and
the benefits that can be gained from a personal like yoga practice are so profound. And they're really just meant for you, like, as a being. It's not really it's not really that those practices, those physical practices from what I can see, you're not gonna glean a whole lot from doing a handstand on a horse.
Mm-hmm. , you know, so there's that piece. But really what it does. [00:51:00] is that, like I said, it's like it gets you to this place of being able to have a sense of evenness in your mind and in your body. And if we want the horse, like I said, if we want the horses to carry themselves, if we want them to be happy, if they, if we want them to be expressive, we have to get out of their way.
I mean, we are a burden on them when we get on their back. Mm-hmm. outta doubt. So we have to do, we have to take that responsibility from, from my point of view, maybe I should change my language. I think it's a good idea to look at it as a responsibility that if I am wanting this sort of a dance to happen with my horse I want to do everything in my power to make it easy.
So that would include being like physically aligned and getting my center of gravity as close to the horse to center of gravity as possible. Mm-hmm. , learning how to move my body in a smooth, graceful, fluid way that's not alarming or abrasive to the animal. And learning how to work with my thoughts in a way that is helpful and not [00:52:00] distracting.
And because your body will follow your thoughts oftentimes too. in a sense, just within riding with that level of intention, you are practicing yoga on the horse, but in a way that makes sense for that animal, you know?
Joshua: if I'm hearing you correctly, it's like you're, looking at things through the horses' eyes there too. in our discussion in the group at first I was just kind of thinking about it mechanically and I was like, huh, well yeah, there's a lot of like side bending as one form of ha the yoga.
And I was like, that would decentralize your center of gravity. And the horse would probably kind of be wondering, uh, like, what is this? Yeah. What do they want me to do right now? So it's not really a probably the accurate place to do a sight bend. Yeah.
Jacob: Yeah. We're not doing anything to improve the horse's balance by doing any, any of those things.
Okay. And the whole real gift of dressage, it's to, help the horse. A new balance so that they can carry the rider more easily. So if we're, you know, we're thinking about it in those [00:53:00] terms. Yeah. Doing things like side bends and stuff on your course is just in my opinion not gonna be helpful really to the relationship.
You might get some physical benefit out of it from, for yourself, but it's not really bringing the horse into the equation in a sense of giving them what they need.
Joshua: yeah. So it's really more of like an invitation like, hey, there's like this whole other thing going on , maybe the yoga is better to do before like, at home, before it gets you balanced and embodied and then bring that in service to the horse to help bring out its spirit and capabilities.
Jacob: Yeah. I mean, and if you need to like, move your shoulders a little bit or do something to get yourself centered and relaxed, of course.
But I think one of the things that's happens a lot with yoga is because of its not to get too preachy, but because of the. . It sort of entering the consumer realm a bit and becoming really branded and all of these different things. We're kind of starting to look at it as something different.
And I've always been really careful [00:54:00] to,
to use what I get from my yoga practice to benefit what I'm doing with the horses. That's really what it's meant to do. It's to Ben, it's to benefit your life. That doesn't mean you have to do, you know, do all of those formal specific practices in any other situation, you know?
Mm-hmm. . So it's, it's a little bit of a question of just looking a little bit deeper into like, well, what is yoga and is it helpful with horses? Absolutely. I will take that one all the way, like it's been nothing but helpful for me. But it's not something that I think, we need to look at a little bit differently than, than Doing actual postures on the horse, I guess.
Joshua: Kinda actually
Jacob: some of the potency of yoga, I think, right? Yeah.
Joshua: And horsemanship, arguably. Yeah. Kinda both. Kinda missing both.
Jacob: Yeah.
The Power of Breath and Core Engagement
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Joshua: I'd like to, I, I want to hear your thoughts on what enlightened French classical writing is, but before we leave the yoga topic you had said earlier the, the intelligence [00:55:00] of the muscles of respiration.
Yeah. Yeah. That's really fascinating. . you had said something to me before that was really helpful that I was hoping to share with people too, cuz we teach people about the center of gravity in the body on horseback it's basically a Pilates cue that I use just because it helped me understand this years ago.
And it was like imagining a thread from your belly button to your spine, say mm-hmm. , but quantifying that with it's not a sucking in or holding of the breath, it's more of control of your core. It's like getting in touch with your core because it puts your spine in a more stable position, it actually frees your core to be more supple.
So that's the key distinction. But I shared with you that I struggle sometimes to like differentiate those things cuz there's like multiple levels and differentiating factors there. And sometimes it's hard to not feel of braced when I'm trying to like initiate my core and to stay supple do you mind sharing some of your experience with that?
Jacob: Yeah, I think I told you that [00:56:00] what I like to focus on is actually a little bit of below the belly button. which is deeper in the pelvis. So there's that. I think when we talk about, like, I hear that cue a lot in yoga, draw the belly button to the spine. There is a tendency, it can be a helpful cue, you know, like if someone's really, not everyone knows where their belly button is, you know, and everyone knows how to, to some degree draw their belly button in.
So it can be a good jumping off point, but it is more nuanced than that. when you start to think about it in terms of like, I have to hold my belly button in, you can actually contract and you can get into some of the bigger muscle groups like. Rectus anomous your abs that, that might actually hold you in a way that yes, you're like more or less aligned, but the spine actually can't move very freely when you over engage.
You know? So when I speak to the intelligence of the muscles, what I, what I mean is that it's like, it's about bringing those muscles online, so to speak [00:57:00] mm-hmm. , so that they're there and they're available and they're ready to engage when needed. And by getting a little bit deeper into those areas, like closer to the center of gravity it frees up the torso to move a bit more.
and it's also associated with the breath. So when you breathe in, when you exhale, especially like if you take a really deep exhale and you push all the air out of your lungs, you will feel an engagement, a deep engagement in the pelvic area. Most people will, if you kind of like exhale all the way and then make a little bit of a ah, kind of feeling at the end of your breath, you'll feel it.
And those are the muscles that I'm kind of talking about. Your belly actually has to be kind of soft to do that. You know, it can also happen on the inhale, it's a little bit trickier. But you can find that at the, at the peak of your inhale too. That's slightly different engagement, but it's just a feeling that those muscles are all on and they're all kind of working together.
And that for me is what allows me to [00:58:00] set up really tall, for example, in the saddle, but still let my back move. It's just having an awareness of those, of those areas and in order to build that awareness, you have to work with them. And for some people that might mean going too far with it and learning to hold them a little too much and realizing that that's actually causing a different kind of tension.
It's just all about finding that middle place. Right.
Joshua: not being afraid to play with that a little bit.
Jacob: the other thing I'll say about the breath that I just like wanna add in before we leave that subject is that the breath is of something that I use to align my spine. when you br like the diaphragm is sort of this parachute shape, I actually think of it a little bit more like a jellyfish.
And it's like this, right? it moves up and down as you breathe. Well, most of us tend to breathe, like especially with the inhale, we tend to breathe like really into the front of the body, which is it does utilize the diaphragm, but when you learn to breathe in such a way that you move the rib cage out to the side a little bit and you can almost [00:59:00] feel like you're breathing into your back, like your rib cage is a circle at the bottom makes a circle.
You know, your spine would be here, and then the front of your ribs right here with the belly. So when you breathe, you kind, you don't want it to go like this too much. You actually want it to go like this. You want the rib cage to open up and relax back down. What that does when you learn to breathe, let's say three-dimensionally that way fully in that body, it lifts you up and lengthens your spine.
Ah, So then, so then you're no longer having to force alignment. that's something that happens a lot, especially in, I see it a lot in dressage. People will say like, and I used to do it, they want you to position your leg a certain way. And then some people who are a little bit more in tune will even say like, you need to balance your ribcage over your pelvis.
And your shoulder is over your pelvis and your head over, you know. But if you're trying to do that from like an external place, you have an opportunity to create tension, right? So you allow the breath to move. Like, and it's a journey. [01:00:00] I mean, getting to where your breath can really move your body and inform the alignment of your body, then you're able to work with alignment in a softer say, more graceful way.
More effective way too.
Joshua: the three dimensional breathing alignment from the inside out. That was really good, really helpful. You just,
Victoria: you just explained breathing to me in a way that's, yeah. I'm gonna have to sit with it for a while and it's re but it's very helpful. It's something I've been struggling with for a very long time.
I think we talked even just the, the tradition that I learned in the western tradition, the, the rain cow horses the cutting. It's, I really learned to hold my breath. I really learned to have a lot of tension in, in my riding and, you know, so I've had to really work hard at figuring that out, . Mm-hmm. , I'm, I feel like I'm just starting to kind of get a grasp of it. So that was like, just what I needed to hear and this moment, cuz I actually [01:01:00] sort of under, I just understood it enough to go, oh my gosh, that's what I have to be starting to think
Jacob: about.
Yeah. And I'll just tell you an easy, a relatively easy way to feel that would be to lay on the ground and bend your needs so that your feet are the sos your feet are on the ground. And breathe in such a way that you just explore breathing, especially on the inhale inhaling to where you can actually feel your mid back touch the ground.
Okay. Versus away from the ground. Right. Yeah. Okay.
Victoria: Okay. I get that. I actually, to be honest when we talked a week or so ago I actually have been doing that every morning. I've been laying on my, and you didn't mention to lay on the back, but I had been working on breath I've been doing that and I've been feeling my spine as I breathe.
Yeah, it's been a sort of a watershed moment for me. Yeah. It's very cool. So, yeah, thank you for that. That was very helpful. And [01:02:00] I am going, I got some work to do ,
Jacob: but have fun with it. .
Victoria: Exactly. No, and that's the other piece for me. And I'll just, again, not to keep harping on me and my journey in this, but maybe it's helpful cuz somebody might hear it and go, yeah, that's what what I get too.
breath work was, had a lot of tension in it. I felt kind of dumb. I felt like I was, never gonna get it. I felt it would elicit a nervous system activation in which I started to even have like mini panic attacks start coming on and it was like, woo, this is not so I get that, that it has to be relaxed.
take some pressure off yourself. For me, just starting small, like I was just starting with one second And I've been able to build by following that edict of, you know, being kind yourself, going slow and just slowly progressing. Yeah.
Jacob: It's so important.
If we don't have, because this stuff can get really like heady and complicated and it really is. [01:03:00] Doesn't have to be that complicated. And, and if you can relax about it and try even enjoy what, hopefully you're enjoying a little bit of what you're doing, you know, sometimes it's work, but you can find that level of enjoyment, then you're gonna really get benefit, you know?
Absolutely.
Joshua: Yeah. staying curious, I think is one. Yeah. One good way to, to work with that. I was in a body work class once and when you were talking about breathing through the back, that was an exercise they had us do or we would put our hands on whoever, you know, they pair you up to work with people.
So my partner's back and we would start maybe just right in the center cause that was pretty easy. And then, then the person breathing was given a visualization to imagine an arrow. Pressing back into the person's hands, then you feel it and you're like, whoa. They're really breathing up their back. And then, then you put it up on the, on the shoulder.
Then they would breathe into the shoulder. Then you put one down on here. Then they would say, try to balance between the two. And then you would start, you know, it was just this really neat [01:04:00] exploration of like directional breathing. That was one of the first times I felt that, and I was really profound.
I was like, oh my God, there's a lot going on with breath, like, breath and everything.
Jacob: Like obviously you can't, you don't have a lung in your leg. You can't breathe into your leg, but you can breathe in such a way that you get feedback in your leg or, you know, the breath actually moves the body we're, we're like this.
My teacher used to describe it as you're a cylinder. Hmm. You know, with openings and you're a pressure container essentially. Ah, right. And like when you build the pressure, everything expands and when you decrease the pressure, everything comes back to the center. So like, learning to oscillate and let your breath actually move your.
is a pretty profound
Joshua: and powerful thing. Wow. Yeah. And I'm glad you shared your experience too, Victoria, cuz a lot of people do really have a hard time queuing into that. And it's just kind of, and then the self-talk that can come out of that, the emotional responses, it can stop [01:05:00] people from continuing to look for and explore that.
And one more sciencey thing. I've shared a picture a while back in, in the Facebook group, have you ever seen that Jacobs called the Homunculus? No, I didn't see that. it's like a cartoonish figure. It almost looks like, a really strange like claymation. what it does though is it's, it's of a human body, but it represents how our motor cortex is wired to our body.
for example, like the hands are huge, you know, it's like a big tongue and big lips, but the center of the body, it gets really like narrow because you know, literally there's not as many motor neurons between those deep core muscles that you said have their own intelligence, which I thought was really fascinating.
Like maybe that intelligence isn't so much in that primitive motor cortex part of our brain. It's like it has you, you referred to the subtle body. So I was just trying to put that all together in my mind. .
Jacob: I'm gonna have to look at that. Yeah. .
Joshua: It's pretty interesting. But I say that just so hopefully like that helps people that have a hard time cleaning [01:06:00] into that cuz it's, it's designed to, even though there's all these powerful exercises and, and energy behind it, but on a physical level, our body is designed to, to breathe without us having to think about it all the time, you know?
So, yeah. It's a little bit of a gray area somatically as a result of that.
Jacob: Exactly. Yeah, that's exactly right. It's a, it's very interesting thing. It's a, it can be a really powerful tool because yeah, you don't, you don't really consciously have to think about breathing, but you can also consciously think about breathing.
Joshua: Oh, the paradox. ,
Victoria: You must be getting close to some truth. Yes. Right? Yes. ,
Jacob: it's just all
Joshua: around us.
Enlightened Classical French Dressage
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Joshua: Could you explain to us a little bit about the enlightened classical French dressage movement?
Because I, that was the first time I had really heard about it was Dominique Barbie's books, which had been sitting around our house actually for years. And Victoria treasured and we looked at, learned from. But yeah, please, what, what the heck is that?
Jacob: I believe that's just a [01:07:00] term that Dominique came up with and started using as a way to create a bit of a distinction between what we see in mainstream dressage versus what he's interested in.
one of my favorite things that he'll say is, if you're clever enough, you can make a horse do all kinds of things, it tends to go that direction. In the mainstream idea of dressage.
How can I, if I push here and hold here and like, shove my hips over here, can I make the horse move sideways or can I, you know, things like that. And what he's getting at is more of a communication, a subtle communication. What he's talking about is, has so much more to do with how you vibrate. And that's why he talks in his teaching, he talks a lot about using pictures.
So because a picture in your mind is going to elicit a certain feeling, hopefully which will have an effect on the body the horses communicate in that way as this. I mean, this is [01:08:00] something you guys talk about so much on your page, and I love that you do because if you want the horse to embody some feeling you have, Be in that place yourself as well.
And so that's the enlightenment piece. It's a moving medication. It's not a forcing or a mechanical approach to dressage. Dressage can be approached very mechanically. You can make the horse do all kinds of things. you can train them to do most of the dressage movements can be trained like a trick too, right?
Certain external motivators. But it can also be accomplished through a feel in your body and a feel and a being in a certain presence in your, in your mind. And that's what he talks a lot about helping the horse be in a position or a balance where it can offer you the movement
Victoria: and where it's almost intuitive to the horse.
Jacob: yeah. Oh, I can, yeah, exactly. Like you're, oh, that makes sense. I can do that. You know? Mm-hmm. versus making them do it, you know? Okay. Yeah. And that's the expression piece too, [01:09:00] that I find so amazing because you're actually giving the horse freedom to interpret and express based on that.
And of course we want, you know, certain things need to happen in order for the work to, to be done. . But that again, comes from a place of being in the right frame of mind. And if something is going wrong and you're, I've been in situations like this, learning here where I'm not, something's not working, and that I start resorting to all kinds of weird movements in my body as a way to catch that and just get that back.
And really what it is, is I've lost my picture. I've lost the whole feeling inside of what I want to happen. I'm not, I'm not visualizing, I'm not thinking, I'm just reacting at that point.
Victoria: And it's, it's fleeting or it's very fragile. I've heard Dominique's talk about, you can hopefully correct me, that feeling is almost like those soap bubbles floating in the air.
And if you touch, touch them with anything else but another soap bubble pop, poof, they're gone. Is that [01:10:00] a
Jacob: little bit right? Yeah, that's exactly what I'm talking about. And I'll just give share like a little example from me right now, something I'm working on. one of the movements that we do is pf where the horse trots in place and you can, you can definitely mechanize that as well.
But the way that we do it, it's so mental. It has so much to do just with the balance and having the right picture in your mind that I can really only get like four or five steps of poff before I need to stop. So then I watch someone else do it like Lauren or Donique and they can sit there and pee off for as long as they want to.
And it's like, wow, you have such a strong intention and feeling coming through your body that you're able to sustain for such a long period of time. Like, that's where I'm thinking, that's where I'm impressed these days. It's like, wow, you can hold that. It's like we're working with the breath, like when we talked about retentions, it's like, how long can you hold that in a place of relaxation?
Right. Go to a place of forcing. It just pops that bubble that you're talking about. Yes. Wow.
Joshua: Great way to tie that practice [01:11:00] back together too, really see how there's a thread between those two things.
Jacob: Mm-hmm. . So, so yeah, that's, that's how I would define it, you know, for lack of a better way of doing it, of what enlightened classical French dressage is cuz there is a system of classical French dressage that can also be done, in certain hands can be done quite mechanically as well.
Right.
Victoria: Mm-hmm. . And does that go back to when you had mentioned, when you began working at the Barbies, even the first time you had to relearn everything?
Jacob: Yeah, , I was in a place, as I mentioned, I think last time we spoke, where I was totally ready for it. And I knew it was gonna be wildly different than anything I had done before.
So I was ready in that regard. I didn't try too much weird stuff. Like I knew that we don't use a lot of leg to turn the horse or a lot of rain, so I was already not doing that as much as I could. But as a result of that, I couldn't really get the horse to go anywhere that I wanted
And I was fine with that. I was like, okay, I'm gonna trust that this is gonna turn into something. And there were [01:12:00] definitely moments of questioning that. But yeah, in that regard, I did have to relearn everything. I realized how much even some of the saddles I was sitting in were positioned and incorrect and allowing my legs to balance me versus my.
center of gravity to balance me things like that. So just even finding a new level of balance on the horse in terms of relearning, that was huge. That's still huge. Yeah, so it was, it was a big learning curve. It was like a cup is full of all this information, dump it all out, we're gonna start again.
And it is really relatable and I can think back to things that I used to do or know and equate those things, but then some of it's just throwing that one away, that's not useful to me anymore.
Joshua: It seems like a big leap of faith on your part. And like you said, you, there were kind of moments where you had to dig deep for trust to keep going with that and Yeah, I'm trying to figure it out more. I'm always finding this connection between like, trust is a two-way street [01:13:00] between humans and horses, so mm-hmm.
that's something I thought was so beautifully displayed down. There was again, that expression, uh, seems like maybe that's part of it. I know it's like yoga, there's many limbs, there's many paths to what is happening there. By that method you guys are using of more visualization, the intention and really leaning into that, that that is developing that two-way trust too.
Between Yeah. Between you and the horses.
Jacob: Totally. I mean, yeah, that's exactly it. he talks a lot about you have to, he'll say a lot of times you have to let them do the movement. that's trusting the animal. That's trusting the horse too.
Joshua: No kidding.
Jacob: You know? It's oftentimes way over managed, like everything that people do in their riding, I would say, especially in dressage and some of just some of the higher schools of discipline.
It's like, oh yeah, you know, you, can get into a place of overmanaging your horse really fast.
Joshua: Yeah. And that, that's putting it [01:14:00] lightly at the high levels. Mm-hmm. , there's outright horrendous horse abuse too. And which we don't need to go into that, but but yeah, that's, I think this enlightened path you're talking about is just so important and speaks to both the horse and the human potential too, because really that other stuff is just cutting human potential down
Jacob: too.
Yeah. It's, it's kinda, it's kinda sad. Yeah. Yeah. That's a really good point.
Victoria: I think the other piece is just what horses then can offer us. We just stamp that down when we try to control or put too much expectations on it. We, we dismissed the point. I think and I found myself in a position where, yeah, I was not having any fun and I couldn't even remember why.
I wanted to do horses, you know, for a minute because, that doorway was closed and it was closed because of the lack of sort of reciprocity happening through the control. Yeah, It's a thing. Yeah, it is a thing. , it's a thing.
Visualization and Manifestation in Horsemanship
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Joshua: Do you practice, [01:15:00] I'm curious, like we talked about how yoga from alignment and balance point of view and the breath the visualization part, that, that's something I know is a big part of, uh, Dominique and Deborah's teaching style.
do you hone that tool outside of horsemanship? Like do you practice visualization at
Jacob: home? Yeah. Yeah. it is something within yoga too that, that you work with a little bit. But yes, I, I try to, and actually anytime I'm struggling with something, when I go home, I'll usually sit down and close my eyes, like something with the horses.
I'll go home and close my eyes and reimagine the whole thing and try to feel every stride of it as a way to put a different impression on myself of how I can work with that. And then, yeah, we do both. My partner and I like to visualize things that we're after .
Joshua: Right. Kind of like a manifestation practice
Jacob: in a sense too, Yeah. And . Yeah. Or even talking about things in a certain way, like they've already happened, I think can also be really helpful. Yes.
Victoria: Yeah. We've been working on that a lot [01:16:00] with our language. Just talking to each other in conversation, just making sure that yeah. That it's the type of language that can create space for magic to happen.
Yeah. Totally manifestation to happen, that kind of thing.
Jacob: So yeah. You use that tool in other areas. Mm-hmm. .
Joshua: I think it's powerful to just note that you've said when something doesn't go great, you go home and re visualize it. I know in like sports psychology, that's really used a lot and it's not just daydreaming about everything being perfect, it's actually visualizing the, you know, yourself doing things are going great and then things start going sideways and visualizing how come back.
Yeah, yeah,
Jacob: yeah. I like that. That makes a lot of sense.
Joshua: My music teacher, which isn't far from you right now, he, he's a great master musician and he talks when he creates compositions, he talks about that visualization component too. I thought that was really fascinating cause I was listening to Dominique and I was thinking, wow swamp on Chery is just like [01:17:00] 30 or 40 miles away from here.
And, and 20 years ago I was sitting in his class and he was talking about seeing. He sees the compositions like forming, you know, he like visualizes it in front of him and to me at the time I was struggling with just the basic mechanics of getting sound out of the instrument. I was just like, okay, I'm not even gonna go there right now
I just need to like figure out how to do this more basic thing. But I thought that was powerful then. So it seems like that's something, like we talked about those mystic threads and mystic paths, it seems like something they share in common is this
Jacob: totally visualizing. Mm-hmm.
Joshua: What's, what's on the horizon for you? Do you have any, any visualizations of what?
Would you
Victoria: care to share your visualizations?
Jacob: I'm here right now and a big part of it does kind of require a bit, a lot of energy just to be here and do this. So that's what I'm most focused on, is just absorbing and digesting. But [01:18:00] yeah, I do have intentions of and it can look a lot of different ways.
I haven't really nailed down exactly how I wanna. Share this, but it does look something like potentially having a place, a facility of my own or working, partnering on a, on a place with someone. And just continuing to share some of these deeper ideas with the horse community. Maybe even people outside of the, the horse community.
Mm-hmm. . Right,
Victoria: right.
Jacob: I love that.
Joshua: We'll have to stay connected. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Is there anything you wanted to share? Like any, anything you're involved with or if you wanna people to know how to reach out to you or anything like that?
Jacob: Well, I can, if anyone wants to reach out, they can definitely get a hold of me on Instagram. It's probably the easiest way. it's Yogi Jake, that name might change. I don't know. We'll see. I don't use Instagram that often, but now I'm getting more into it. So, , I'm realizing the power of that tool.
Another paradox, I don't know. I would just say if you're interested in any of this, to read his books like. Read books. I am reading right now, [01:19:00] and I, I opened it cause I do some of their social media stuff for them. And they have, they've re redone the, uh, sketches of equestrian art mm-hmm.
Oh, that book, because he has little explanations of the different movements and they're these beautiful drawings. So it's really good tool for enhancing your own inner image of
Victoria: all of this. Right. The visualization piece that would be so helpful.
Joshua: Right. What's that called
Jacob: again? Sketches of equestrian art.
I opened one of these to a, a really cool quote if you are curious to hear it. So, very curious. He says, this is little picture of him with his, uh, one of his horses. It says, there is no room for doubt. Be as centered and as true to yourself as possible. Your horse will know exactly who you are and what you feel.
Take the, uh, take time to enjoy the pleasure of each new contact. Remember, you're both experiencing the ongoing process of knowing each. .
Joshua: Wow. Man. I thought it
Jacob: was really a good one to talk about just cause [01:20:00] of our conversations about congruency and things of that nature. But in my mind, that's what he's getting at.
Yep.
Victoria: He puts it so simply and so beautifully and in a way that that could apply to any interaction or relationship you're having. Right? Yeah,
Jacob: totally. Yeah. yeah, if I could give anyone any advice about if, who's interested in some of this type of thinking, which is to be read all of his books,
They're, they're really quite friendly to read, you know, and you don't have to work too hard on understanding it and you'll understand it kind of whatever, whatever level you're at. So it's helpful too. Mm-hmm. . Yeah.
Joshua: And they're beautiful. The photography's beautiful. So yeah, that's Dominique Barbie's books and
Jacob: yeah.
In terms of myself right now, I'm just, yeah. I'm just a student right now. That's really what I'm the most focused on at this moment.
Joshua: That's beautiful . It's a good place to be. Yep. it. Okay. How about this one? What are the top three things? If you could only tell people three things that are important [01:21:00] or meaningful about horses.
What would they be? Three, three things. Three qualities, however you wanna say it.
Jacob: One I would, one that I think about a lot is that they teach me how to not be so serious about myself. Oh. And not take myself too seriously. Anytime you think you know something, they're there to show you that you have more to learn.
So that's one . Let's see, what else? I would say that, you know, horses have a really, they have a huge vibration, and science has talked a lot about this, you know, the, the field that they create just from their heart alone, it's huge. Yes. And, and so even if you aren't someone who thinks about things in a little bit more of a, let's say, like a woowoo kind of way, I don't like that word, but I'm lacking another one.
It is just so important to know that horses feel things on a, a level that we can't even really begin to understand. And so it's just so important to, to take that into consideration and to approach [01:22:00] them. with respect to their sensitivity. I would say humongous.
Victoria: Yeah, that's one that just silence first
Joshua: Yeah. Yeah. That's sink in. Well, I think that's really beautiful cuz uh, some, some people that we talked to, they're not so interested in actually riding and being, you know, equestrians. They're, maybe they volunteer at a sanctuary or working with horses in a therapeutic settings. Mm-hmm. . So I think just, just knowing that, that, you know, the groundwork for one thing and just that energetic component and, and really I think everybody sort of feels that subconsciously, but just really naming it and, and talking about that is really important.
Jacob: Yeah, definitely. Yeah. in terms of really, that's, those are the two big ones, I think.
Joshua: Yeah. , I love the seriousness one too. I, I was, you know, pretty new to horses when I met Victoria, so it was, I came in with a, beginner's minds. I literally didn't know anything or hadn't been to anything.
And, we used to do [01:23:00] these little schooling shows for our clients and we made 'em really fun and light. I was really surprised at just kind of the general, like intense serious vibe. There's, and the frowns, I just assumed, I Hey, these people are living their dream. They have horses, they're hauling their horses on trailers.
They're get to ride them in arenas and get ribbons and prizes. I just thought everybody'd be like, kind of in this blissful state, and it was like a real shock when I was like, whoa, he is kind of stressful. Every, this is serious. Like, you know, .
Jacob: Yeah. I, I actually remember one of the lessons that I've had with Dominique.
He, I, he always asks at the end of his lessons, do you have any questions? And most of the time, you know, you're just kind of so at least taken back by what just happened that I don't really have a question. They'd come later. But I did ask him, I said, well, if there's just one thing that you think I could work on to improve overall, like, what would that be?
And he just said, smile more,
and I was like, at first I was like, Ugh. What a bullshit answer. Like, I'm trying to figure stuff out here, but he [01:24:00] means it, and, it's like, if you can't enjoy what you're doing, you're not gonna get good results, first of all. And being in a place of joy when you're doing what you're doing is really what's gonna give you the juicy stuff, I think.
Hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. , and, and you can, you can smile. Like I think people, he does it sometimes. He doesn't always smile when he was riding, but he's still kind of smiling. Mm-hmm. you can almost smile with your body in a way, like where you feel like the effect of the, of joy in your body. And that's, I think, what gives you the most vibration with the horse, you know?
Wow,
Joshua: okay.
Victoria: Yeah. That's gorgeous. And that's the thing with joy is it's gotta come from a place where there was some, there was some struggle, there was some learning, there was some, some stuff that had to be worked through and traveled through. So, I mean that's, again, we're just back to the paradox, but that's joy.
It's this, this grounded. Happiness or this, I don't, I don't know how else to [01:25:00] describe it, but it's, it's very authentic. Yeah. and so yeah, it's not just smile for the sake of smiling. It's like, feel it, like Yeah. Actually smile.
Jacob: Yeah. Yeah. It's huge. I mean, and that's another thing I think that horses teach us is just how to be in the present moment.
And if you have, if you're worried about a bunch of stuff when you're, a bunch of life stuff, when you're getting, getting going with your horse or riding your horse, you're gonna have problems . So most of the time something will come up. And so, yeah, I think that just, just like being willing to let go of that stuff and just choose to operate from a place of joy is huge, huge.
I mean, it's not easy either, but I think that's really what we're practicing with the horses.
Victoria: Wow. Yes.
Joshua: Yeah. Thanks for sharing that. Yeah. Cause that, that was a great question too to ask by the way. That's a tricky situation when with am maestro and you're . I know. Cause you [01:26:00] know, like if you just practice, you'll learn everything.
If you just, they already told you what you need to know. So kind of like a trick question. So asking what, where can I improve? Is a great question. It also kind of speaks to the relativeness too of it all. was it at the symposium where he said like, he's still trying to find the perfect shoulder in, you know, and, and so it's all so relative.
Like it's really not about figuring it out, it's just about being in it, you know? Yeah.
Jacob: Yeah. Definitely. That's one of my favorite things about him is that it's always. A work in progress. It's never finished.
Joshua: Right on.
Gratitude and Future Aspirations
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Victoria: I am so thankful that we connected, reconnected that we got to talk a few days ago that we're talking now. This conversation has been really meaningful and I'm just feel so much gratitude for being able to just like, sit here and be a part of it. And just wondering as you go forth in your day, something you're feeling gratitude these days [01:27:00] about yeah.
That you would care to share.
Jacob: Well, I mean, I was just gonna, I'll just reflect what you're saying too. I'm, I'm so cool to have made this connection and to get to talk to you and just to talk to anyone really who cares about it in this way is really special. So I'm very grateful to be connected with both of you and that I feel like we're just getting started, so that's exciting.
Yeah. And then also just that I get, I'm just so grateful that I'm here and that I have a someone who's supportive in my life that's helping me chase my dream and that I guess get the opportunity for however long I'm here to just be here and. . That's my happy place is, is to be in a learning environment.
We don't always get, you know, in life, we don't always get those chunks of time. So I feel like when, when they come, it's really special. So I'm leaning into that big time.
Victoria: That's, that's good stuff to lean into .
Jacob: Definitely. I'll lean into it until I can't anymore. There you go.
Victoria: Well, .
Joshua: Better let you go. We gotta pick this up though.
Jacob: Yeah. Oh, definitely. We can do more. I'd love to.
Victoria: Okay, [01:28:00] good.
Joshua: I'm visualizing mini podcasts
Jacob: I would love that. Okay. We're there?
Yeah. Yep.
Joshua: I know we're gonna make it back down there. And you're always welcome to come up here, although I don't know why you would leave Healdsburg, .
Jacob: But
Joshua: just the door open. Just put it out there. All right on. I'm gonna go ahead and stop recording. All right.
Jacob: Thank you, Jacob. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you, Jacob.
Oh, that was great.
I hope you enjoyed the show today. We'd love for you to join our free sub stack community for the herd is calling connect with us, engage in thoughtful discussions and access exclusive content. Click the link nearby to subscribe. It's so easy and totally free. We appreciate listening. And as always, may the horse be with [01:29:00] you.
