Untitled project from Restream
===
Holly: [00:00:00] I, I've never cried so much in my life when I started writing Pippa, cuz I was so frustrated but at the same time was so happy because I was teaching her all these things that I didn't know I was. and so that discomfort of, it, do I actually love this or is it actually awful?
I think that obviously the love overcame and I think that all trainers experienced that, , loving the challenge is the key and the discomfort in leaning into that I didn't know that living in that discomfort every day would teach me that.
I have to experience something uncomfortable and something challenging and frustrating to come out on the other side, you a complete butterfly. For training a horse, that's always true.
It was, frustrating, uncomfortable, I hated it. But , you have to go through that and, come out on the other side Pippa taught me a ton That was definitely the pivot was that horse.
Introduction to The Herd is Calling Podcast
---
Welcome to the herd is calling podcast. This is where we break free from conventional norms to explore the art, science, and wonder of the horse human [00:01:00] connection. I'm Josh Williams. And together with my wife, Victoria, we're your hosts. Our mission is to inspire. you to improve the lives of horses.
Subscribe to The Herd is calling on Substack for behind the scenes stories and unique content. Now let's get to the episode.
Josh: Welcome to our podcast.
Meet Holly Sylvie: A Journey in Equestrianism
---
Josh: The Herd is calling Today, we are really excited for our guest, Holly Sylvie. I'm gonna read a little bit about Holly's background. Holly grew up in Bend, Oregon, where she was heavily involved in four H and ffa.
She competed on her high school equestrian team and horse judging team for several years. Holly took a gap year after high school serving the Oregon FFA as the State Sentinel, where she traveled the state and country promoting youth leadership in agriculture. after the year, she was recruited to northeastern Oklahoma [00:02:00] a and m College to judge horses and ride on the equestrian gene at N E O.
She participated heavily as the student body president and received her associate degree in agricultural education. After judging at N eeo, she was record recruited to Texas a and m University, where she judged horses in the fall of 2021 after her final collegiate competition, Holly has been focused on coaching youth teams across the country and working in extension.
She will graduate T A M U with the BS and Agricultural and Extension Education in the spring of 24. Holly is a strong advocate for youth, equestrians and future judges as she spends most of her time volunteering and coaching. She is motivated by the connections and emotional growth experience when youth are challenged with their equine partner.
Welcome, Holly. Hey, . Thank you. I'm very excited to be here. Oh, I'm glad you're here. Great. So [00:03:00] glad you're here. Yay.
Early Equestrian Experiences and Mentorship
---
Josh: a little, um, personal backstory too is, Victoria started working with Holly. How old were you, Holly, when you guys first started?
Holly: I was eight. Eight. So
Josh: you've known Victoria longer than me, which is really cool.
Holly: a long time. Yes. It's amazing. Yeah. .
Josh: and we've had, um, some, we, we kind of call 'em Wise women on the podcast that we look up to that have a lot of life experience and wisdom and we've just kind of been wowed by and we talk a lot about beginner's mind when we were doing our kids program and how much we actually learned from the kids.
So I think it's really cool having you on, cuz you're kind of in that middle ground where you're an adult obviously. but you still have that beginner's mind perspective coupled with all this experience now that you've had over the last few years. So I'm just really excited to hear your perspective.
Holly: It's really cool cuz the, the kind of the beginning start that I had was with Victoria, so I think a lot of my initial equestrian. [00:04:00] Start, well all of it was, you know, started with in the arena with you. And so being able to like go to college now and be like, learn more educationally has been so amazing.
And being able to tie that back to being, you know, 8, 9, 10, all the way up with you in the arena is just amazing. Wow. Interesting.
The Joy and Challenges of Horse Shows
---
Josh: Yeah, I wanted to share too, back when we were running Cascadian tables and we would do our little schooling shows and of course you were, we handed you a lot of buckles, back then , when you were showing with Boots.
And for me, cuz I had come on the scene after you Right. And that was literally the first horse show I'd been to. And I was tasked with announcing .
Holly: So it
Josh: was. Yeah, talk about trial by fire. And one of the observations I had of really the horse world as a whole, was I had had an assumption that everything was gonna be really happy and kind of joyful and light and a lot friendliness.
And we did make [00:05:00] an effort to have a friendly vibe and like a good atmosphere at our schooling shows. And schooling shows are a lot less pressure than, full blown horse shows for those who aren't familiar with the term. I was really surprised at the intensity and the seriousness and You know, just kind of the toughness of it.
And I was kinda like, oh geez, I thought everybody's gonna be happier cuz they're like, have their horses. But you, you always projected this sense of joy. Yeah. When you were with your horse and you're just like, and you were winning a lot because you were so committed. But I don't think it would've mattered if you're winning or not.
you have this joy and even going back over some of our pictures, you just have this smile. And that was really what I hoped, you know, everybody would have. And. It was so new to me then I didn't really understand everything, I was just taking it in. But as we've gone on our own journey and come back to things like what really matters and really is about joy and connection relationships.
So I just wanted to say that, that I really appreciated that from you. Cause I think about you a lot and [00:06:00] that energy you brought to our shows and the barn and all of that. And I just think you really were onto to something special back then. So it's, it's exciting to see where you've taken it from since then too.
Holly: Yeah. Thank you. That means a lot. I think that that's a mindset that has, I looked a lot. Throughout the years and we'll, we can talk like growing up and learning more about horse shows and the industry and the lifestyle, it's, it maintaining that positive attitude, especially with horses is so imperative.
I think that I learned that at a very young age and had to, I think that I may have at a negative attitude, very young age. And then being able to like develop that and learn more and with, with my several different horses is definitely helped me a lot. I, I think back to that pivotal moment of, you know, why I was there.
we'll talk about your why, but that was definitely, I was there to love and hang out with my horses and have fun. And that's definitely still a mindset I have today with education and kids and all. .
Josh: Great. Yeah. , that's so
Victoria: important. And, [00:07:00] and yeah, that was I think what, you were so surprised, but you're like, people, you're here with your horses, you're like, yeah.
Spending the whole day with your horse and you're getting prizes and hanging out with your friends, and like, why aren't you happier? You know?
Holly: Right. Yeah.
Current Life and Observations as a Judge
---
Victoria: I know you're a student right now, and so that has, you know, sort of impacted your horse life. So what does your horse life look like right now these days?
Holly: these days I do a lot more observing than I would. I'd like to be on the ground more, but as being a judge and being in college, it's very hard to have a horse boarded or somewhere or have property.
my horse lives in Oregon and I live in Texas, so I don't have any one-on. Right now, but right now I'm home in Oregon, so I've been hanging out with my horse and pet nerd and feed nerd, which is so nice. I've helped some kids and hanging out with the oat team on the ground today. Uh, but most of my time spent is, you know, virtual on [00:08:00] watching videos, watching live streams of like the I Q H A World Show.
We watched like the N N R H A Derby, watch a lot of TV . That's what I just like to observe. Now that I know what's happening in the arenas, I just, I have a more of a judge mindset now. And so being able to, you know, pick things apart and score and reward for fun is kind of my, my interaction with horses these days, which is kind of random.
Mm-hmm. . But I do, I love it. It's been great.
Victoria: so your home on CR. Holiday break. Yes. And that's where you're getting to hang out with your horses and you get to see, even one of your horses that you train, that you then sold to one of your students and one of your moms four H kids.
What's that like seeing your horses in the hands of kids enjoying them, doing all the things with them because of the training that you've put into those horses?
Holly: It's amazing. I didn't think [00:09:00] that I could feel that much joy or pride watching them. you know, as a, when you grow up, I label myself as a tinker and I would always tinker with my horse.
And I had, you know, the one Boots was my main horse, and she, I would never settle and I would always play with her and do things and teach her how all these cool tricks and, and so, I was the tinker, but having these young kids get on and just learn how to sit and how to keep their heels down and, and putting all of those together on a horse that was always tinkered with, and now she just gets to walk, jog, lope and loves it and does great at it.
And I, it's just, it, I makes me so happy I was watching Caitlin with Diamond. She was lunging her and she just, you know, just talks to her. And Diamond just right there with her every step of the way, they're best friends.
She drops her head to put the bridal on and, it's just the, the connection there was, I, get a little bit jealous cause I'm like, dang, that used to be me, . I was her number one, I was diamond number one. But to watch Caitlin, you know, she just. loves her and adores her. And, it's so [00:10:00] just, I just wanna watch all the time.
I mean, I said that earlier. I love just observing and their relationship and boots and, uh, Savannah's relationship. It's just, the horses are great. I, I think, I know that a lot of the, everything I put into them, it turned out well when I can put a nine year old kid on and they fall in love with each other in one ride, you know, that says a lot about the horses, but it makes me feel really good about what I've done with them.
And, and they're the horse emotional stay. They're just, you know, they love everyone and they're not hateful. They're just so broke and kind. And I, yeah, I, I, it just makes me so grateful, so, so joyous. Even living in Texas, watching videos and talking on the phone with them, it's just amazing. .
The Importance of Curiosity and Learning
---
Josh: When you talk about being a tinkerer, that really just makes me think about the quality of curiosity and mm-hmm. , how important of a skill that is in working with horses. Cuz it's really about being curious. It helps us not anthropomorphize, it helps us not take things personal. I mean, that's a [00:11:00] really deep subject, being curious, I hear that thread of curiosity even when you're watching, like you just like watching and observing.
So it seems like curiosity might be one of your superpowers that helps unlock some of that joy that we were talking about. .
Holly: Yeah, I think so as well. , from a judge's standpoint, being curious as to how, does a person get a horse to do that? I mean, ju if you judge raining, like how does one get a horse, two, run down the arena, put the brakes on and love its job at the same time?
how has a horse so happy in an arena when it's only been ridden in the arena? You know, like, how does that work? ? I've had horses that, well, sometimes they get sour and you know, how do I not make them sour? How do I make them love their job? . So just constantly thinking about how other people do it and witnessing and watching, watching trainers and watching people ride and what they're doing with their legs and how they're using their hands.
it's just the whole mechanics of it. I love to watch and as a kid I would watch, she, I would watch Victoria ride at some of the big raining horses, and I'm like, how does she, and then I would get on my horse the little back [00:12:00] backwards, you know, and I'd be like, okay, I'm gonna try to do this. I watched Victoria do it, , and the result was not quite the same, but I was, I would always just watch and observe.
And being 16 at Cascadian stables, I'd watch everyone ride and, you know, take things, take things away, or, watch things and not pick them away. Um, taught me a lot about how to work with my horse or versus how to not, just a lot of observ.
Victoria: The watching, the observing, the listening, the, yeah, that's it, that's what it is.
Josh: and listening and thinking about how to help them really enjoy what's going on. I think that does get lost in some, schools of thought and some disciplines and worlds that, it was one of the people we talked to recently was Jacob, I think you really enjoy watching his podcast.
he had a similar experience as a young person was watching a dressage writer, and he was just so curious how she was getting those movements and what was his mantra? It was like, what can I, how can I help you? How can I help you? Like that was kind of his mantra. Now with horses, [00:13:00] he's just always thinking, how can I help you?
Mm-hmm. , another angle of that curiosity.
Holly: Yeah, that's, that's a great way to think about it. it's very interesting, especially talking about like massage horses and, and like the higher skill level. And it's, you know, you teach these horses all these tricks to do these things and they still enjoy it.
Like how, their brain is always being filled. Your brain's always being filled and like to continue the joyous relationship with your horse. And you as you continue to teach them, that's imperative. Cuz you can teach a horse things and they might not enjoy, running all the way down the arena and slamming the brakes.
Do they love their job still and do you still love teaching them? imperative.
Victoria: I think when we talk about horses being a mirror, that, that's almost kind of become a cliche cuz it's just been so over. . but when you see a horse doing its job for its person and you see the horse doing it with joy, you have to think that's the way or the context of the horse has been trained,
Holly: And from like a judge's perspective, when you see that it, it's worth so much reward. I mean, you want a [00:14:00] plus plus plus a horse and rider that are the rider's happy, and the horse is, ears forward loving its job closed mouth, like you, you reward that continuously versus a rider that's, stern handed or a horse that's open at the mouth and negative in the ears, like you're gonna take points away.
So the relationship, I mean, it's evident in the horse's expression all the time. So I think that that's kind of a new thing that's coming in, I think. , his expression is being rewarded so highly, in the shows and in, in a Q H A to the point where some people are unfortunately faking expression with horses, with, like earmuffs and injections and, um, yeah.
So it's, it's, that's always, I mean, we talk about industry that happens. So you find judges that reward one thing and then everyone is, you know, finding a way to get that one thing out of their horse. Mm-hmm. . Uh, so expression the thing right now and how happy can you look a horse, make a horse look, even if it's not super happy, uh, wow.
But genuine, genuine expression they just earn so much. It's amazing. .
Victoria: That's good. [00:15:00] Yeah. And I would imagine that's where your skill as a judge comes in is being able to discern what's manufactured happiness in the horse or ex or, you know, positive expression and what's not manufactured, what's really, truly the horse liking their job
Holly: completely.
And that's the challenge. I mean, that's a challenge every day, especially in the higher stakes, quarter horse shows is, what's happening behind the scenes that you dunno about and what's happening in the arena. It is the horse actually love his job, you know, and that's, that's just always a question in the back of the head.
It's really fun when you do find a winner that is happy and it's genuine and like that's why we do it, is for those, the winners that love their.
Victoria: Right.
Josh: That's really interesting. I have quite a bit more questions about that, but before we get into that, I took some notes so I won't forget.
Holly's Early Passion for Horses
---
Josh: I wanted to hit the rewind button and go back to young Holly and why were you first drawn to horses?
Holly: I think a lot of it was genetics. , my mom rode [00:16:00] horses, , well, she's the only one in my family. My grandparents sit in and my dad didn't, but my mom did and we had horses in the backyard and it was a staple.
so I was that kid that had, you know, the horse painted bedroom and the horse bedding and the pajamas and the shirt. So I was just obsessed because I, I think that's just how it worked out. I was gifted a pony. And as all little kids do, I feel like, you know, that have an interest.
And the pony was the spawn of a bad o . She was the worst. Um, I had her . She, she would buck me off almost every day. I was in the dirt at least twice a week. but I, I was fiery. It was what I wanted to do. I loved it. Um, the tinkering, playing with horses and doing all of that, started with the pony. I used to go out in her pasture and read her books at night, you know, like, like your, like your books to go to sleep. I would go out there while she ate and read her pony books. so it was just, that's just how it all began.
And then I got [00:17:00] boots, and Boots was a little bit more of a challenge. Not like bucking me off all the time, but she was, you know, four year old, well bred. I was so excited to have and learn from. At the time I was competitive and wanted to, you know, win and win and win.
When I got boots. That's where the competition trail. And I loved that too. And, things kind of slowed down. I think that when you compete a lot as a young child and your, you start to either change your, you pivot and you focus on learning or you pivot and you leave the sport.
I think that my pivot was learning side and I decided I wanted to, expand my brain and observe more. And, when I was 16, started working at the barn and I wasn't about competing anymore. It was just about growing, growing the relationship that I had with my horse and finding joy in riding.
that's kind of a quick track, but yeah. So started with the Little Pony that liked to see me in the dirt and then turned into learning .
Josh: Yeah. That's some stick to it that, you're talking like basically kindergarten, early, getting bucked [00:18:00] off of a pony. That would scare most
Victoria: Holly would not
Holly: be
Victoria: scared.
Holly: Holly wouldn't up. She kicked me in the eye. I was seven. I was in second grade and I was leading her around the pasture, and she turned around and kicked me right in the eye and a black eye for a couple weeks you know, I mean, I was out there the next day petting her and brushing her and, you know, with one eye closed, like, just loved her
It was, it's crazy. I don't understand why I kept with it that young, but it is just a fire. Couldn't put it out.
Josh: Hmm. Yeah. Which I wonder, I know you've mentioned a little bit about your why. Does that thread connect back to them or can you connect to them? Like, why do you think, you were literally born that way?
Do you believe in past lives? Like where does that come from?
Holly: I think that, a why from my family dynamic it was. As a young kid, horses were, was my avenue. And it was a chosen avenue, but it was also simultaneously kind of a forced one. Um, [00:19:00] not that they was like, you know, you have to eat your food or you have to do this, you have to clean your room.
You have to ride horses. But more of like, this is what we do and this is what you're gonna do. but I also loved it, so it wasn't hard to follow this avenue from a young age. And I think that a lot of my why, if it, I don't know if it necessarily stems from the pony or from all of that, but simultaneously being, you know, it's, it was a way for me to be rewarded as a kid for my family, you know?
Mm-hmm. , when I was rewarded for riding, well, not only would I, but I also get the pat on the back. And so looking back psychologically, it's a reward thing. That's how I am. And so, it's now the emotional reward and intrinsically or extrinsically, it's when I can get on back of a horse and love it and they love it as well.
That's the reward I get now, where as a kid it was, Hey, you didn't fall off pat on the back. And that's kind of where it all started. That pat, it wasn't cookie kicking a goal in the soccer net. It wasn't, you know, getting the egg on the paper. It was, oh, hey, you [00:20:00] are a great writer. Great job, Holly.
And that's, I think we're, that kind of stemmed and I'm dealing with a lot of that now of that reward kind of psychosis, um, , you know, constantly. Um, I think that's kind of stems from a lot of what I do, but it's a good thing. And I, that's kind of the why I started Now. I am in it now because I, I'm educated around it and I love the youth factor and I love what it did for me and have the, I talked about my pivot educationally and I think that a lot of.
My peers pivot out of the equine industry or they, they pivot against it. And I think that there's so much to learning to be done and there's so much change to be done.
The Role of Education and Mentorship
---
Holly: And I think that's a lot of my why now is, , I just want to, to educate and be educated constantly on how to stay with horses, happily and, help people around me.
Not just compete, compete, compete, or, you know, try to make money, try to make money. , but do it for the right reasons. And, [00:21:00] you know, just educate people why things are the way they are, is my why now. .
Victoria: Mm-hmm. . Yeah. That's
Holly: beautiful.
Josh: Wow. That's great. Yeah. I wish I was that, clear of why when I was your age.
Yeah, that's, that's really cool. I think about even the reward system, it's something in neuroscience, the dopamine system in the brain.
Holly: Mm-hmm. , I
Josh: dunno about you, but I always kind of viewed that as like if I take a bite of the ice cream, I get flooded with dopamine. Like Yeah, I love that. Or you get the ribbon.
Oh, I love that. The pat on the back. I love that. What they're finding out through some research though, is it's actually more nuanced and way more powerful than that. And like dopamine really drives humanity, not through. , the culmination of the award, not through receiving the award, but through the pursuit of the thing.
Mm-hmm. . I feel like you've tapped into that. It's why you've stuck with it, like now your interest because probably because of the curiosity, which is a form of pursuit, ? And now it is, sharing and, and feeling that thing, like for, it feels like it's this [00:22:00] continuously moving target, which I think is really healthy to be able to stay in that joyful place and to stay motivated, like you said, intrinsically, it's maybe the source of intrinsic motivation, even.
Victoria: It's the pursuit, it's the tinkering, it's the questioning, it's the, I wanna figure out why and how. That's the, that's the reward.
Josh: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Of course. We'd like to riff on the journey analogy. So the joy is in the journey. That's like a really deep, like, that's a pretty popular saying, but when you think about it through that lens of.
The pursuit is really what it's all about. It's not about getting to a destination
Holly: completely. And, and I think that you witness a lot of people that don't find the joy in the journey and aren't continuously propelled by the tinkering or the learning. And because they don't experience the reward, , if they don't continuously pursue education and learning in one step at a time, they don't find or reach the reward, and then they, leave or find new things or, you know, can become sour or not, not [00:23:00] motivated, which makes sense.
But, um, I think that a lot of times with horses, it's easy for someone to walk into the arena, walk, jog, loe, and get a, get a ribbon. But what did they actually learn? You know, what did they actually. Do with their equine partner? What connection did they have? Were they judged properly? All of the things that go into that reward.
it's not just a ribbon are you learning or you're supposed to be, and are, were you evaluated in accordance, you know mm-hmm. , yeah. Kind of going on the rabbit hole, but yeah. That, that's good at, at a young age, put the equine industry can either be ama amazing or sometimes a little bit toxic, and it takes a lot to propel in the correct direction.
Um, on the education side. .
Victoria: Yes. That's
Josh: booya,
Victoria: that's kinda a, That's some truth. That's some truth.
Josh: Yeah. Maybe let's just stick with that while we're there. Like what do you think it takes Holly? Like, I know you had a really great influence from your mom, who we really admire. She's an amazing [00:24:00] woman.
Your dad's fantastic. Yeah. We
Victoria: love your test . We were just
Josh: talking about how great he is. Like, what do you think it takes? Cuz not everybody has that, but that's where mentorship and good coaching comes in. So it doesn't have to come from the house. if it's not already there, what are your observations?
Holly: That's the challenge that I'm constantly trying to go with. I think that my story and, you know, I found a lot of success with my horse boots. Um, I went through several years where I was very successful because I worked so hard and I was super motivated.
But there became a moment where I, um, they say like, sometimes the top is lonely. And I felt like that. And I, not to be full headed, but I was very, very successful. I won a lot. Mm-hmm. . Um, but I didn't have the, the friends or, you know, I started to struggle with my horse and I couldn't teach her anything more.
I felt like I kind of had hit a wall. I started working at the barn. I started scooping shovels of poop and going, why? Like, why am I here? This, I, my horse is boarded here. And, you know, I'm like, I wanna win. But I, I've, I have won like, [00:25:00] what's next? And I think the biggest thing for me that changed everything was when I started working with Pippa, you know, I was like, okay, I have this new horse.
Like that's, you know, try to learn and. And I kind of dismissed the winning and all. I, I wanted to do it for the learning. Every time you walked into the arena, it was like a new, new attempt at something and it was something new for Pippa to experience. And it helped my mindset so much. It took me several years to get Pippa to where I didn't even, I wanted to do so much more with her.
Uh, but I just really focused on, you know, one step at a time. And then when I, when I wasn't focused on that, when I wanted to rush training or when I wanted to rush her into having a good expression, you know, everything would hit the wall. So I learned very quickly. You have to be so slow and thoughtful and kind, and there's so much more out there to know.
And I think it started with that when I had gotten Pippa. and so for me it looks a little bit different. I think that there were a lot of factors [00:26:00] that. It's pivoted on my horse journey, but for more youth, I think that the reward, we talked about the reward system, but I think it just needs to be altered.
I think that with every equestrian and youth equestrian, there needs to be an educational side, uh, in order to, I see a lot with my peers that when I graduated, you know, I stuck with the horses. I kept judging, I kept helping. Um, I continued to learn and it's been my whole life. I mean, it's every connection I've made, it's every experience I've had.
It's going to, it's different states across the country, traveling, meeting best friends. And, , it's because I pursued education. And I think that as young people in middle school, elementary, middle school, high school, they need to know why. They need to know why their horse acts the way they do. They need to know, to take it one step at a time.
That it's not all about the buckle at the end of the show. . , and it's about relationships that you build along the way. And I think that's just, I mean, it's [00:27:00] been my j my story and I can't hope but reflect and, and think that there's so much opportunity out there for everyone else as well. it's just, you gotta get the word out and you gotta keep teaching.
And there's, education to be done. There's always education to be done. and that's why I just, I continue that. So I, I guess to answer your question, I don't know if there's necessarily one thing to do. I think I'm still, you know, picking the mind on that, mm-hmm. , but it's definitely my pursuit.
I'm trying to figure out my, I know what my pivot was, but is there a pivot that works for everyone educationally with their first journey? not here yet.
Josh: Yeah. No, that's powerful. , I do believe the power of information and knowledge is really amazing. Like, I wish somebody had told me that when I was in high school playing sports.
I thought it was all about winning and kind of didn't even realize it was really about the friendships with the people around me and getting close with the mentors and coaches. I didn't really think about that . So maybe if somebody had just simply said, Hey, by the way, this is actually what really matters in this whole [00:28:00] pursuit, that would've been really helpful.
from the educational point of view, you know, Victoria and I, Victoria's obviously been teaching forever and part of what we're trying to do is create a curriculum, a way to share information, in a terms of a framework mm-hmm. , and you talk about why and intention a lot. when we really dug into this and it was a big personal journey that's ongoing.
We're still figuring, I mean, we're basically just like you mm-hmm. trying to figure this out, and I don't. necessarily expect two ever figured out. I really enjoy just trying to figure it out. . Yeah. but the first module. We call it journey to self, but we debated calling it Journey to Why, because, mm-hmm.
why is so important and there's so many things with horses particular, this is one of those places where it just applies to all of life, but it's so beautifully illustrated through the horse relationship. And we've seen that a lot of people struggle to kind of come up with these things maybe for themselves or for their relationship or for their school or career, whatever it is they're doing in life, [00:29:00] but they can see it between them and a horse.
And then once that door is open, shines light and all these other parts of life too. So that finding a. Your why, your intention behind things. It seems like, the educational part, you said it's not about the buckle, it's about the relationships along the way.
that kind of speaks to some of that, maybe there's an exercise where you cultivate that or share it with your cohort of people or your teammates, you know, something like that. Does any of that resonate with you?
Holly: the relationships I made in high school, with my coaches, I, in the moment, you don't realize how pivotal they are.
Like how influential that your high school coach or even your high school teacher. My advisors, the extension, my extension agent, you know, you don't realize at the moment how much they will do for you moving forward. And I think that it's easy for you to say, or for my mom to tell me, Hey, you gotta, you know, they're gonna be in your life forever.
You have talk to them and, and rely on them. And for a 17 year old kid to go, no, [00:30:00] I'll never send them again. so it's very easy to. Misinterpret that. But now, I mean, I'm 22 going on 23, and those relationships have given me everything. I mean, I've worked for my high school mentor for four years. Because of the relationships I made, Noma, I mean, I was given the opportunity to go to Texas.
With the relationships that I've built there. I mean, now I'm being able to find a school and a job and maybe even travel and continue more. All because of the relationships and my teammates as well. I mean, collegiately, we've been competitors at every show. We've, you know, we've been cutthroat and we've also been best friends.
We're roommates now and, and we're, some of my teammates are halfway across the country in Iowa and Arkansas and Montana, but we talk. can send people, you know, we always talk about if you have a flat tire, who you gonna call? but I, I confirm we say that those relationships have bridged that gap in every state.
Like, I, wow. That's the same, like my teammates and three of my teammates right now are on a huge A Q H A [00:31:00] show in Tampa, Florida, working it, and they're making connections with industry leaders, judges, announcers, scribes, so those relationships they make, they carry on across the country and the equine industry and everything else.
I mean, and that all started just from choosing to learn about judging. You know, at 16 years old, I chose that I wanted to know how to score and that I wanted to give a set of oral reasons. And now I'm 22 years old and you know, I know one of some of the largest judges in the industry and it's just, it's just cra it's just crazy.
It blows my mind. Yeah. But yeah, so it all starts something small, but I think that the relationships and connections are what the make the world spin. I know that now and
Victoria: Wow.
Holly: Yeah. ,
Hey friends, Josh here, we've launched a free community for the herd is calling it's on substack subscribe to join thoughtful discussions and access exclusive content. It's as easy to use a social [00:32:00] media, but so much better because social media, am I right? In the words of John Lennon. A dream you dream alone is only a dream, but a dream you dream together is reality.
Like the wisdom of the herd, we are stronger together. Click the link nearby to subscribe and get in on the conversation. Now back to the pod.
Victoria: that's really good. Well, and it, and if I heard you correctly too, I'm sure there's like so many factors that went into this, but one watershed moment for you was.
Stepping back from the high of being the person who was the one to beat at the horse shows, in high school, middle school and high school, and saying, I'm gonna take on this young horse who is very green, barely had, you know, half a dozen rides on her. I'm gonna take her on Pippa, who you mentioned, who was young and green and hadn't had much done [00:33:00] with her.
I'm gonna learn how to train her. I'm gonna work off her board and my lessons by shoveling not only her poop, but all like 20 other horses that are murdered there. Like, there was a real like, commitment. You had to, you had to say, I'm taking a step back and I'm gonna do all these other really hard things.
And I just wonder I know you didn't consciously know that that was gonna set you on this path of learning, but I gotta wonder if there was something unconscious or, cuz that is not an easy path and that doesn't, that's not the path of least resistance.
Right. And it's still the path you chose and it's the path that you just beautifully laid out your life now, which is just full of connections and relationships and opportunities and the sky is the limit. And it kind of seems like it started. In this very intentional moment where you decided to take a route that was a little less intuitive maybe?
Holly: [00:34:00] Yeah, and it brings up a good point. when I started with Pippa, I, I loved it, but I hated it. It was terrible because I wasn't winning and I, you know, I was not getting that reward. And I was like, why isn't she learning anything? You know? It's been a whole day, it's been an hour by, she didn't learn how to do this.
it was, I, I've never cried so much in my life when I started writing Pippa, cuz I was so frustrated but I also at the same time was so happy because she was brand new and I was teaching her all these things that I didn't know I was. and so that discomfort of, is it, do I actually love this or is it actually awful?
I think that obviously the love overcame and I think that all trainers experienced that, you know, is this actually great fun or is this really, really challenging? so, you know, loving the challenge is the key and the discomfort in leaning into that and that moment. I mean, I didn't know, like you said, unconsciously, I didn't know that living in that discomfort every day teaching that would, would teach me that.
I have to [00:35:00] experience something uncomfortable and something challenging and frustrating to come out on the other side, you know, like a complete butterfly. And so, and my parents, I mean, they, everyone tells you that, hey, you just gotta get through it. Like, you gotta just, you know, buckle down and it'll all be great, but it, you just have to keep going.
And for training a horse, that's always true. With horse judging, I was super challenging. Collegiately, to. Compete and be compared to your teammates and be compared to other schools while also being in college classes and taking hard tests, and going to practices for eight hours a day.
It was, like frustrating, uncomfortable, I hated it. But , you have to go through that and, come out on the other side so much with so much education and perspective. it is kind of the same thing. And now I love judging after I went through all the discomfort with Pippa, fell in love with her and fell in love with the training and the horses.
just so you know, knee deep in that discomfort is where it all, like all just projects and [00:36:00] everything's amazing. The sun comes out tomorrow, you know, after you tru through yesterday. So yeah, it that definitely, Pippa taught me a ton and so has everything else. That was definitely the pivot was that horse.
Victoria: She was a spunky little thing. Yeah. And you guys made a great, she was a great one.
Collegiate Equestrian Team Experience
---
Victoria: Maybe we could fast forward to your, your collegiate equestrian team experience. Um, there's a, there's a whole catch writing format there. Could you explain what that means and what that was like?
Josh: Yeah, I Hadn never heard of this before until Victoria was telling me about your experience. I was like, that's crazy. That
Victoria: sounds very, talk about hard. That seems really hard. ,
Holly: oh my gosh. Talk about it. Yes. So collegiately, I was on an I H S A team and um, I was on a team with 20 girls and I had, um, we had a female coach.
So talk about dynamic. That was challenging as well. Um, but [00:37:00] we. Had the catch riding. So we had a, every school had about 25 horses that were donated. And at any given time, you drew out of a hat, the horse that you were gonna ride that day. Uh, and the horses, there was no training done. There was no practice, no prep.
Um, you would just hop on at shows, especially you would just hop on. Um, they would hand you your reigns as you walk into the arena, and then you would show, do horsemanship, pattern and rail, and then you exit the arena. So there was, there's no, um, relationship with the horse. You're not, you're not actually allowed to pet them.
So you, you literally, you walk up on a mounting block, hop on the saddle, they hand you the rain and then you go in and Yeah. And that was the same with practices. We practiced three days a week, four hours. Um, and we. , we'd be given a horse and you'd get on and, and it was all about your functionality. We didn't do any training.
Um, it was so hard for [00:38:00] me cuz I'm such a tinkerer, you know, I'd get on the horse that would throw its head and I'm like, Kate, how do I, how do I fix this? You know, I wanna squeeze this leg and do this with this hand. And, you know, I wanna play around and who can do a flying lead change. Uh, but I could, you know, my coach would actually yell at me if I would stray from the one hand, you know, and, and like my body, you know, being completely upright like an equestrian or horseman, horsemanship.
And that was very, very challenging. Especially being, you know, after spending so much time, so much time being like th two or three years with Pippa and practicing the training and step by step learning new every day to going into this process of, Hey, I want you to sit on this horse like a trophy and then win.
And that was, you know, very, very challenging. And it's the dynamic of the team was. Very hard too. I, we had, I had a girl on the team that was, um, she won the congress horsemanship, uh, you know, 18 and under. And [00:39:00] then I had another gal that had never ridden a horse before.
Victoria: Wow.
Holly: And so just kind of navigating that and, you know, having horses that were super broke, that were amazing, and then also some that were donated and couldn't figure out what was their left hoof from the right hoof.
You know, they, so it was something new every day, uh, but not a whole lot of , you know, tinkering or step by step, day by day is very, very different.
Josh: Hmm. How do you feel about that format philosophically?
Holly: Um, I. I think that it's great for beginner writers. I think that if you, uh, enter college and you wanna be a part of something, like if you wanna be on a team and build relationships, that it's a really great avenue.
Um, I mean, friendships made. I'll have the rest of my life, my coach, you know, still talk to, but in terms of mental health on, like, as a previous [00:40:00] equestrian, you know, I was, I loved riding and I still love riding, and I loved, you know, what I had known, being trained and training to, you know, sit on this horse, keep your heels down, don't move your body, and maybe you'll win a ribbon, but, And you don't have any relationship with the horse was just terrible.
I mean, you, you could leave the arena and, you know, obviously probably not win a ribbon. Maybe, maybe you did, but still don't know what to be proud of. Like, was I proud of my body or was I proud of the broke horse that I was sat on? Like what was actually successful? Um, cuz there's not a relationship, you know, I can smile the whole time and maybe my horse is happy in expression, but that doesn't mean that we did it together.
So what really is the reward here? Um, so showing at shows was, was different. It was a lot of, we would put a lot of makeup on and we would dress up and, you know, get all gussied, um, and then we would get on a horse that we didn't know [00:41:00] and expect to bring back a title for our school. And it, it was just, different.
And, uh, they talk a lot about functionality as writers, and I think that that's kind of a buzzword right now is what's the functional, um, is it really truly functional, functional to be, you know, sitting straight up with your shoulders back and your arms tucked into your waist? Or is it functional to be sitting back, you know, a little bit more balanced, um, and riding your horse what's right, what's actually happening.
And that, I struggle with that too, especially having a little bit of raining background and sitting, sitting back legs a little bit forward. I'm like, this is, I am gonna fall off if I sit mm-hmm. forward. You know, if I, my heel, my heels are behind me, I'm gonna fall off of this rank draw horse that I don't even know
So like what truly is functional? Um, that was very, very challenging. Yeah. Learned a what. .
Victoria: Yeah. Yeah. [00:42:00] What an experience. It sounds like you learned a lot of what doesn't work for you, which is helpful.
Holly: Mm-hmm. . Yeah. But in, I mean, in, in reverse, we, I learned, so I didn't do in high school or growing up, was how to keep my body strong.
And I struggle with that. A young age with Victoria, I started having back problems cuz I didn't work on my own strength. And in college we worked out, we had actual, like breaks in the school gym where it was equestrian gym practice and we went and worked out and, and I was the strongest I'd ever been.
Um, wow.
The Importance of Full-Body Strength in Riding
---
Holly: Like full body. And I learned that, you know, when, when you are strong and you're riding every day, uh, you like, it's you, it's, you look great. I mean, you can ride well and you look great functionally, but you also, if I was riding a horse that I was training, I would've done a lot better job, you know, being strong, um, head to toe.
And I, I've kind of in my mom's head, she's a oat coach. I said, you need, these [00:43:00] girls need to be strong, you know, practice on standing two point and practice, you know, getting off and stretching and, you know, doing some pushups maybe here and there and, you know, just make sure that they, they can withstand writing that much.
Uh, cuz that's ver like Gotti Health is very imperative writing that. .
Victoria: That's so cool. Yeah. What a, that's a great observation. Yeah, what a great learning.
Josh: What I love from that, what I appreciate about what you shared was that you were able to take the best and leave the rest
Holly: yeah.
Josh: Cause I've been in different situations, not with horses, cause I've always been with Victoria, but
Um, but other things like in body work or, or music where sometimes you are in situations where things aren't really lined up. In your perfect philosophical world, but you're still able to glean lessons and learn from that. Sometimes it might just be learning what doesn't work, but mm-hmm.
in your case, you picked up quite a few other things from that too, and probably a lot of great relationships, which is a theme through your whole arc here. Yeah. .
Volunteering and Leading in 4-H
---
Victoria: So whenever you come home, you're [00:44:00] volunteering, you're leading and serving, you're helping your mom with her four H kids, you are running the county four H Fair.
I mean, my goodness, that's a big deal. Yeah. Like to anybody that
Josh: hasn't seen a county four H, it's fair. That looks like running around on a four wheeler with hundreds of kids and families. Pure chaos. Usually really hot, like could be a hundred degrees at a fairgrounds, and
Victoria: that's just the week of the fair.
That's not all the stuff before. And yeah, that's
Josh: just the actual fair answer. Yeah.
Victoria: You're teaching the neighbor kids how to ride. You are, you know, what, where, where does your drive come from? What, what. What drives you? My God, woman. What drives you? , . It's
Holly: a question I ask myself all the time. Um, I, I don't know.
I, I, I'm just, I constantly just wanna do something and I don't wanna help [00:45:00] and I wanna help people.
The Impact of 4-H on Personal Growth
---
Holly: And, um, I think when it comes to like the four H Fair, I, I'm volunteering with four H is just that, it's given me everything. Four H has given me the world and I'm, I'm only 22, but I can see that, that, like where I'm at right now is because of what I've learned, you know, wearing the green and white and, and talking about, you know, four, the four H's.
And that's, I mean, it's given me a lot of success and I can just only hope that I. help some of these youth find success in their own way, um, with what it has to offer. And so, I mean, that's my, my degree is cultural extension in education, which is four H and ffa. So I'm quite literally doing a full circle to teach kids, um, in high school and middle school how to propel into life in all kinds of industries.
Not just the equine, but, um, you know, being home. I laugh because I'll be in the house, you know, on the computer watching tv and, um, Savannah or someone [00:46:00] will come, come over to ride and I just. , I feel like as somebody else would just, you know, not, it wouldn't phase them. They'd be like, oh, I'm still watching tv.
That's great. They're writing. I just can't sit still. Like if someone's doing something I love, I have to join it. Um, if I, you know, like if, if she came over and wanted to go on the four-wheeler and drive around, I would join in if she wanted to go. I mean, I don't really love much, but like horses, she wants to ride.
I'm gonna be out there with her watching, maybe, you know, helping her out. But definitely just observing and seeing what's going. , and it's the four, I mean, it's writing, it's judging, helping juniors, you know, knit. If I knew how to knit, I would help them, you know, I would be there just trying to, if I could.
I just, I love it. It's, it's, I mean, you, you guys love people. You guys love horses and, and Victoria, you know, training and working people, it's the same thing. That's I just kids, agriculture, horses, all of it. That's just, that's it. That's what I, that's what I, I take for, I [00:47:00] I it's the best. So yeah, helping the four H is easy.
That's just, you know, that's just backyard horse. But I'm, I'm so excited, but I, I just, yeah, I, I love helping. I don't know where that comes from. I know that it's, uh, it's good to help people and everyone should spend a lot of their time serving. Um, I just think that that's gonna be my whole life. That's, that's all I wanna do.
So, Yeah.
Explaining the 4-H Program
---
Josh: what are the four H's for people that don't know? Yes,
Holly: please. . Okay. So four H is an out school, um, youth development program based around agriculture and stem and motor skills. So, every county has a four H program, the Deschutes County here we have. All of the livestock, small animals including dogs, horses, we have textiles, so sewing, knitting, everything, crocheting, art, food, baking, and then lots of stem right now with robotics and things.
it's all, all youth development program. The four Hs are [00:48:00] head, heart, hands and health. And it's kind of just the catchphrase for the program. And I, yeah, I love it. I'm learning all about it in my classes, so that's been really cool too, is learning like psychologically how it impacts kids. So learning about, you know, how I turned out the way I did, I don't really know if I can pinpoint it, but, what it does for people and young people is just so cool.
Out school youth programs are the best. Get your kids involved.
Josh: Yeah. Great.
Psychological Benefits of 4-H
---
Josh: If you could, can you just tell me, the top three reasons of why four H or any of these type of afterschool programs are good from what you learned in college . Psychologically? Um, convince me and, and like, three points.
Holly: Okay. So some good points. Um, I, I think that a big one is confidence. right now I, it's easy for a young person to get to be led astray or to not believe they're worthy or to, you know, seek self-driven rewards. And four H is really great at that. for someone to [00:49:00] create something or to train an animal and then to be rewarded via, you know, extrinsic rewards, but also intrinsic.
I did this myself. Confidence comes from that. In addition, um, autonomy. It teaches pretty much about independent and your own person and to work as a team or in a club, but also individually having your own project. It's so imperative and it that itself, you know, responsibility, um, taking care of something you having the more perspective than yourself, but doing it all on your own.
And in four H we always talk about the parents should be on the sidelines and the, the kids should be in the arena and constantly, constantly. It's because autonomy is number one. Um, and then I think that third, so I'm kind of ba basing off of like a hierarchy, but like a, a sense of belonging with four H as well and relatedness to peers.
There's a lot of. Re relationship to be done with young people in, in [00:50:00] four H. And the the, also, the cool thing is that it's out of school. So it's chosen where in, in school relationships are built based off class schedule or, um, maybe you have some favorite teachers that you're, that you kids like together.
But in out of school programs, the relationships they build are via, they're what they have in common and the relationship that they want to build. It's not forced like you would think in a classroom. Sometimes they're not forced in classrooms, but sometimes they are, you know? Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . So, so the out of school relatedness and, Hey, you like to sew, I like to sew.
We can now be best friends and so together, or you like to show cattle and I like to show cattle. we are now related in that way and have that, connectedness and yeah, it's, I mean, all of those things that it, it can give so, so much, many. Experiences and thoughts and skills. Um, but I think that those are, yeah, autonomy, confidence, and relatedness.
I just, yeah, I, [00:51:00] I love it. .
Josh: Mm-hmm. . Okay. I think I would be convinced. . That's really cool. I really love the worthiness and belongingness as a couple of, that's things that good stuff I've been thinking a lot about lately. Have you ever heard that? Did some research where they, people that feel isolated, scorned, or rejected, it fires the same parts of the brain that the pain is the same level as if you were to literally put a lighter underneath their hand.
Victoria: Mm-hmm. . Yeah, that's, it's, it's that,
Josh: it's an alarming, intense sense of pain. So it's that
Victoria: painful. It's on par with that.
Josh: And I feel like those, that's what happens a lot in the world right now, , whether it's. , you know, I suppose like technology is part of it. And of course I think technology's a tool.
It's similar to like money. It can be used for good or bad, but it, it does create a sense of isolation, I think. Especially if you're just kind of alone playing video games or, or whatever. I think the world just feels more divided. It is like you used to be able to have [00:52:00] discussions about politics with people or have disagreements and be able to talk about it.
Now it's just like, kind of close the door. I'm not talking to you. So that creates isolation. and if you think about it, it's like people are in pain as a result of that. And that's not just like an expression, it's actually literally pain if you think about that study. Mm-hmm. . So I think that's really interesting.
And to be able to teach kids, how to connect and, and do that at these young ages, that's really powerful. All those are really good reasons.
Challenges in 4-H Horse Programs
---
Josh: What do you see, and let's maybe just focus on Horse four H cuz we're, we're, this is like a horse centric thing. where do you think it could improve?
Or what does it need?
Holly: Yeah. Uh, oh, I think that there's always improvement to be done. we talk about, I mean, there's a lot of times where four H and industry Doe do not get along. And so you'll see some youth that are, you know, that show at a higher level that are shown, maybe show in the circuit or, they can maybe afford nicer horses, nicer t uh, come into these four eight shows [00:53:00] and Rock House, which is great.
I mean, they, if they have, that's fine. They have the means, they have the objective and the drive to, to win and to rock on. That's great. But you also have the instances where, um, young people, you know, they have a horse that they were given. They have a saddle that they thrifted and they are completely driven to the max, but cannot find extrinsic success.
And so, you know, being able to, you know, wage where and how do we measure success for these students that are so different in. in every stage age, psychological, socioeconomic, you know, how do we wage the gap for them and also allow them to find success intrinsically with their own, uh, motives.
So with horses, it's between having them find safety with their horse part partner. So having, you know, a trainer being able to ride, can, you know, get full, get through a pattern in the arena and feel safe cuz that's number one. But also, you know, feel joy and success [00:54:00] while doing it. at the level it should be.
They should, they should be learning and, and objectively finding happiness in writing period. where you might have other people come into the arena that want to win all four of the buckles. Mm-hmm. , that's great, that's awesome. But that's not what four H is about. And so being able to like To make everyone happy is the challenge.
And I think that right now we're struggling with that. I have a, a best friend in college that will not do four h She was raised in the circuit. She raised halter horses and swears against four H. just because she was, she would show up with her, you know, world champion halter horses and everyone hated her, And she was like, okay, I, I would always get dirty looks. No one liked me cuz I had nice horses. and I was like, yeah. Like I, you know, I can understand that. that's, that's awful. I hate that they made you feel that way. That's not cool. But that's also not necessarily, what's it a, what it is about, it's not about bringing your best stock, it's about bringing your best [00:55:00] mind and learning and being propelled.
to be a better person. You know, through your head, hard hands and your health, not just having the nicest animals. that's definitely a struggle with horses. It's easy to go out there and buy a nice horse and show it, but it, it's not always the best for you. So I think that, I mean, that says a lot about where I was at as a kid too.
I was the kid that had the nice horse and I was the kid that was successful. Um, but changing that mindset is what happened to me. And I think that, I mean that's, I witnessed it running the shows and I witnessed it working for four h four years. It's, it's hard for kids who. can't afford things and who work hard but cannot find the success for the, the reward.
It's challenging it's, you know, how do we level the field manos or we would Right. You know? Yeah. So, right.
Victoria: Yeah. Right. That's, that's a thing. Mm-hmm. and that's a thing in, you know, in every facet of life in the world. And that's, [00:56:00] that's a tricky bridge to, to create. And I don't know that it has been created in any realm.
I mean, money is gonna be, especially in horses though. Yeah. Money kind of, kind of takes over a lot of the times and, yeah, like you said, kind of dilutes the whole. .
Holly: Great. Yeah. Like, are we, are the kids learning or are they just surviving? You know, what, what, why are they here? Why, why do they wanna learn?
If someone's gonna come in and just beat them and make them feel bad about themselves, which it isn't the goal, but as a kid, you know, you put all your wages on this horse show and then your horse doesn't act the way you want it to. Or, you know, a paper bag flush to the arena and then, you know, you, you just ne it's just very challenging to wage worth when there's so many factors.
that's definitely the challenge. And as a mentor, I mean, uh, running the horse show, it was just so important for me to see people. And there's a lot that happens. I mean, constantly running around and putting out fires [00:57:00] and, you know, talking to judges and also, you know, making sure everyone's safe, but that everyone's seen at the same time.
You know, we're all here for the same thing. We're all here for kids to grow. We're here for them. And that's it. That's how, that's where it should end. We're here for the kids. That's the only reason why we, we put these shows. You know, that's, that's, that's what needs, I think if that's the one A to the industry, not in an industry, but to four H and four shows, little shows, is that we're here for the kids always.
That should be the only reason that we do it as adults.
Josh: Hmm.
Victoria: Mic drop.
Josh: Yeah. That'ss huge. Yeah, it's very, it's a little paradoxical, isn't it? The, the reward base, how you said wage worth. that's, that's really a great way to put it. and you said nobody knows, or, or you would do it as far as finding a solution.
do you have any ideas? Like what
Victoria: kind of Putting you on the spot? Yeah. Putting you on the spot. No. ,
Holly: challenging . I, I think, um, a great avenue and, and these happen, these, these things happen. is the type of [00:58:00] shows where they're, you know, Bridge, bridge your own, train your own, show your own. I think that those are a great avenue.
Not everyone can do that, right? You still struggle with socioeconomic part of it, but, um, having your own horse in, in training your own and showing it is I think one of the best avenues. Or even putting like a, a cap. I mean, I, it's so hard cuz horses are the most expensive livestock. Okay. I don't know. Or I mean, you look at like terminal livestock that go, you have it three months, you're the only one that trains it.
And then you have to go in the arena and show it. It's a little bit more of a level playing field. Not much, but a little bit. But with horses, you know, you have 'em for years and years and years. Um, anyone can get on them and train them. You could buy them for, you know, hundreds of thousands up to, you know, a couple dollars.
You know, there's, there's so much that can go into it. I think that promoting, you know, positive training and for kids to, I mean, I'll. I'll say this, so I'm blue for them to learn and be [00:59:00] educated why horses are the way they are. Um, and also to understand that like Victoria used to always say, you lose 70% of your horse, um, in the arena.
I think it was something like that. Yeah. You remember them saying,
Victoria: I think it was 80. I, I think I moved the, the number around depending , I'll be like, you're gonna lose, you're gonna, but um, I think it was like you'll lose 20 to 30% and so, so you can bet that, you know, when you go to the show, you've got about 70 to 80% of what you're used to having when, when you're at home.
Holly: Right. Yeah. And so if, I mean, for a kid that's so imperative to know, cuz you know, you walk into arena, your horse is gonna lose a little bit of its brain, right? And so to be able to think about that even, you might not have gotten the blue ribbon, but you got the red, but it's because maybe you lost 30% or maybe you lost 40% that day.
So understanding that mm-hmm. , um mm-hmm. . I don't, I guess I don't have a whole lot of [01:00:00] solutions. I'm still working on that. I wanna get my master's, I wanna fix it , you know, you know, so it's, I'm still like, that's definitely a challenge. And talking to my roommate about her dislike of four H also lit a fire in me of like, these people that do have the means.
They shouldn't be exiled either. They know they should still have the same opportunity. Um, maybe we need to have two separate types of shows. I don't know. But that's not really the solution either. Mm-hmm. . So just trying to somehow level the playing field. . Yeah. Time, effort, you know, it all changes. So,
Josh: yeah.
Yeah, that is a really tough subject. And, and like you guys said, that exists in so many different realms. You know, Victoria's in a, in a social work program, so she's really knee deep in, in that. And, and the fact is, is it is an unjust, unfair world. It's extremely unbalanced as unbalanced as maybe just from, you know, very wealthy to uh, not as wealthy four H member, that's a pretty [01:01:00] small gap compared to the other inequalities that exist in the world.
not to downplay it either cuz it's, it's like representative of such a bigger problem. and I don't have the answer either. Part of me just wonders if changing the reward system to where it's not as performance based and maybe more relationship based
Victoria: and even learning. I mean, I think that's, You know, and really great four H programs.
The horse showing is just like a tiny piece of it. And then the clinics. Yeah, and the, that's, yeah. Learning opportunities and the club stuff and the community service and mm-hmm. , I mean, that is, When I was growing up and doing four H, those were the parts that meant the most to me. Horse camp with all my friends and my horse, you know, that that was the rich stuff for me.
I think that when you start making it all about the horse shows and all about, you know, qualifying for the, the state fair or whatever, you know, whatever the thing is, [01:02:00] I think that's where it can get, pretty, pretty hard to see, like, okay, what's, you know, there, where's the value here in terms of learning?
Well, there is a ton if, if you're utilizing the right parts of the program and if those program, those parts of the program are accessible and fortified and mm-hmm. , kind of the ones being. I think Fair gets kind of like fair, but there's so many other parts of rates that are really, really amazing.
Holly: Exactly. Yeah. And I think that, I mean, that gets challenging and especially with, you know, industry leaders that we want to do clinics. It gets very challenging cuz then it's, can you give us Alin clinic for free? We, we don't wanna charge these kids. and some people don't wanna do that. Or, timing, we look at like times of the year in weekdays.
And how is information getting out? I did a clinic series in, in December, or I guess it was like November, December, um, and how to broadcast it, but it still didn't get to everyone. So how, you know, [01:03:00] how do we, how are all these things available? And do these people have social media? Do they have emails?
How do we get people to come to horse camp? Can they afford camp? Can they afford meals? Like, you know, like, just like you're saying, you know, is it accessible? Is it, can everyone, this is, reach everyone in for the right reasons. It's yeah, definitely a challenge constantly And all outta school programs, not just four
Victoria: H, right?
Yeah. I mean, you look at soccer, um, you know, all true that are too, like, you know, you guys have quite a lot of money at your disposal to be able to, to do these things, so it's another rabbit hole, you know? Yeah. It's
Josh: a rabbit hole.
Victoria: Yeah, .
Advice to My 15-Year-Old Self
---
Victoria: But what, knowing what you know now with the lens that you have, what advice would you give your 15 year old self?
Oh gosh. and what, what advice would you give your 15 year old self that you think your 15 year old self would listen to? .
Holly: I know that's definitely the challenge, . I have to think about if I were to talk to, like one of my, [01:04:00] one of the kids I work with,
Victoria: right.
Holly: I would say I, if I were talk to myself now, I'd say don't worry.
It'll all, everything will all work out. don't sweat the small stuff, which again, is easy to say to a 15 year old that's having a meltdown. But, um, don't sweat the small stuff. It will totally be okay. Talk the talk, walk the walk.
be the person that you are going to be to everybody, you know, be transparent. And that's easy to say as a 22 year old and a 15 year old might be like, what does that mean? But, as you go through high school, I think that there's a lot of influence that can be taken and also given. just constantly be reminded of who you are and find a hobby and find a group of people that allow you to be transparent and to be who you are.
don't stick to people that want you to be someone else or stick to a hobby that doesn't make you feel whole. you know, for me, stick with the whole, stick with the horses. You know, maybe for somebody else play basketball till you can't anymore. You know, do something that makes you feel alive, especially when you're young.
[01:05:00] I think that. , find a hobby. It helps all, always, uh, to get your mind, you know, kind of away from things. , I wrote a note. I said, give more rain. Um, as a kid, , I was pretty tinker stuff on the rains. If I were to talk to one of my kids, I say, you know, just give, give more rain always. There's not not reason to be in your horse's mouth.
And there's also not a reason to be so tight up. I mean, tight on everything in life. Give more rain metaphorically like yourself. Um, you don't have to be so high strung. You know, you can chill out and sit on the sofa every once in a while, and it's totally okay. And I think that it's, it's the same when you're riding yours.
You know, I don't have to be so high strung. You can chill out and give yourself some rain. I'm tensing
Victoria: notes .
Holly: So a 15 year old. It's okay to, to sit and breathe and, and not play the puppet strings, you know, of high school. Always. You can, you know, just go through a day to day. . [01:06:00] I think that's advice.
Josh: That's good advice.
Victoria: That's really good stuff. Mm-hmm. , Holly, thank you for that. That's, that's, I think gonna help some people.
Josh: Mm-hmm. .
Victoria: Yeah. That's good stuff.
Josh: Helps me hope. Hopefully you can use it at 45 too.
Victoria: That's what I was gonna say. I was taking notes because Hmm. These are good ones. .
Josh: Yeah. You've got paper notes actually.
Victoria: give yourself free. I think that's a good one. I had never thought about that until tonight. I love it. No, we won't keep it. We'll, you know, we might use it and we'll credit you we'll.
literally and metaphorically give more rain. That's good. So just to start wrapping it up here Right. We should probably, we're gonna have to have you back and talk about your experience of judging, cuz I realize that's like a whole, so much more about the
Josh: judging.
Victoria: Yeah. Thing that we'll have to come back to. .
Josh: There was one piece of that though, that I think we could visit, because I do think we need to do a part two cuz that's, I actually had [01:07:00] a whole list of things that I wanted to go into, but I know that'll probably be like an hour conversation Yeah. In and of itself.
But one piece is the face expressions and maybe if you could share with us, not so much through the judging lens, but from, an understanding horse's lens. we have a whole section where it's literally called understanding horses and we talk about face expressions. found some interesting research where I think it was 17 mm-hmm.
different face expressions, which was only about eight less than what they found with humans. And we joked that we think the researchers probably missed a few , with horses. but that really surprises a lot of people. that they have so many different face expressions so that might be really cool if you could share just some of your observations and experience with that.
Holly: yeah, so as a judge we learn a lot, like on, on with halter horses on the flat, we look at expression, kind of pinpointed.
We talk about quality being face and head and neck, and being able to look and see, you know, what's like the structure of their face, the jaw, all of it. But also in [01:08:00] the moment, , like halter horses are set up and usually expressed with like a lighter or something, and they're looking forward and, you know, what kind of expression are they portraying?
Doesn't necessarily go into how we evaluate them, but it's fun to see, you know, what kind of horses, you know, portray what, uh, in sock horses you'll see them, you know, fierce forward looking at, but in your like subtle bread type, they'll get a little bit more serious and, you know, they're a little bit more flat nosed and longer faced and that looks different and they look maybe a little bit more sour than at stock horse, but they're just, you know, doing their thing.
Um, but when you get to looking on the, on the flatter as they go, you know, uh, it's very easy to see a horse that likes its job when it's, you know, looking. Uh, we straightforward with the direction and it's moving without fear. And I think that as a, when you can see a rider that's happy, subtle, and cues, you know, hands, legs, and is, you know, balanced and happy in it's saddle, [01:09:00] um, looking forward, then the horse is gonna do the same.
The horse is gonna be balanced, hopefully in its body. It's gonna be flat and it's, you know, flat in its neck and, um, head and then looking forward and happy and, and ready to go. Uh, in terms of, you know, actually reading what's happening in the face, I couldn't tell you a whole lot, but on the go, I think that an image of a horse and rider that's rewardable is an image of happiness and wanting, wanting to be there and wanting to do well.
And it's, it's lovely. We hear a lot of judges. Like big professional judges, you know, they use the term they wanna win. Um, oh yeah, this, that one really wanted to win. I'm gonna reward 'em, wants to win. And, and for me that looks like a horse that's happy to be there. That's expressed like ears forward. You know, closed mouth is a big one.
If a horse is open mouthed at all, we'll dock pretty heavily. And that's, I don't know if that's a new thing, it's something that I've learned. I was like earlier, pretty heavy handed as a kid and so I would've known [01:10:00] my, my horse open mouth. I definitely would've given rain, um mm-hmm. . But now as a judge, I'm like, wow, okay, that horse is closed mouth, that's super rewardable.
Um, um, because so much could be anywhere. They could not, not liking their bit, maybe their bridal doesn't fit in all the things in between. But yeah, I think expression goes into a lot and it's just fun to watch. It's way more fun to observe when the horse and rider are happy. Hmm. .
Victoria: Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Yeah. I, cool.
I remember, um, I, I remember one time Shawnta, who's a, you know, I think he's up to like 6 million in the reigning and he's arguably the best in the world. He said that when he's showing, he's just trying to put the judge in a good mood, and that always stuck with me. Like, he just wants to make sure when the judge looks at him, the judge can't help [01:11:00] but smile because that's what's reading, reading from his ride and, and that, that sounds like kind of what you're saying.
Holly: And to add on to that a little bit, I know we're kinda wrapping up, but I tell my using how a judge, I taught them in a way that's not just scoring, but like their own feeling. So I always say a plus raise. So if you're watching something and you go, wow, that's awesome. It's probably a plus one maneuver.
you know? And so I'll teach 'em and I'm like, well, if you suck back and you scowl, it's probably a minus one to a minus one and a half, right? And so I kind of taught them that. And I was like, did you guys, did you raise your eyebrows or did you scout when they're like, scout, that was bad. . Okay. Minus one.
Right. So to as talking like making the judge happy, were they astonished the whole time where they're eyes, holy cow. It does it in a plus one and a half. Uh, so that's, that's a great Yes, exactly. And Judging's so fun for that reason. I mean, you feel all these emotions and then you have to put them on [01:12:00] paper and it's out.
It's just the best.
Victoria: If you could only tell both three things. That are important, the most meaningful about horses or what horses can teach people?
Key Lessons from Horses
---
Victoria: What would they be?
Holly: I think that a good one is to learn from a horse is that there's joy in everything. They're constantly aware of their surroundings.
Their per peripheral vision, they can see most everything. they're thoughtful and they're thinking and they're licking their lips and they're, they're with you every step of the way. And I think that as a person being distracted and, observing all corners of the world and enjoying that, every step is, a whole new perspective that opens so many doors.
And so to take that from the horse of. , just because I'm on a straight track and I have blinders on cuz I wanna get this job done doesn't mean that there's so much more going on around me to like open those blinders and to see everything is from horses. I think that I've learned that a lot and I've always been one with blinders.
I'm very driven. I'm, you know, single focused. But when I get on the back of a horse, I [01:13:00] mean, I can see the whole world and that's, something that I, for myself is different and I know that for a lot of people. another thing that. Is kind of new. And, and we talk about building relationships, but for people that are, are more driven to show, and we kind of alluded to this, you lose 20 to 30% of your horse at the show.
Um, and any given day, any given day, a horse could have a fly in on its back and it's already lost 10%. So why put so much pressure, especially on show days and show horses for them to, to be a hundred percent. You'll see, and I was, I'm complete culprit, but as a judge, I mean, you see people warming up and running their horse to the ground trying to teach them something 20 minutes before the show.
Victoria: Right.
Holly: Your horse isn't gonna learn anything. It's, if anything, you're gonna lose another 15% of what they had. And it's just going to. Made a really sour atmosphere for you and your horse in the pen. I think that as a rider, it's so important to accept [01:14:00] who you are and the relationship you have with your horse.
Every step. even if you're trying to teach them something and you have several weeks to do it, where you've made it that day is where you're gonna be tomorrow and where you're gonna be the next day with a little bit added on as you teach them things. But the relationship can only get better in time.
It's not gonna get better in 10 minutes. so just es especially, I think showing a warmup and a little training session before you get into the arena is not gonna do any good. It's gonna do worse. So if I can give anyone advice on that, but I mean, relating that to the world, you are who you are every day.
It's, you have to work in long times of period to change your life measurably. And so, you know, you just have to accept that. one step at a time and continue moving forward. It's not gonna happen in 10 minutes. Uh, and then I was, I kind of, I wrote a little note on this. I said, thank your show staff always as being a show staff and knowing what that's like.
It's so nice to be appreciated. But that's not just add a horse show, but [01:15:00] all the time. I mean, be gracious, thank people. Uh, hug them, care for them, high fives, all of it. being gracious is so important. And especially in the horse show industry. I mean, there's a lot that gets passed by and there's a lot that goes into the whole or orchestra of everything.
And so thanking people continuously, it's, it's not easy to be part of the horse world. And so, Everyone has to fight to, you know, to love, to love what they do. And so thank them for continuing their horse journey and continuing to learn with their horse.
Victoria: That's good.
Josh: Dang, that's so good stuff.
Yeah. Really good
Victoria: stuff there, my friend. Man, you were a marvel. This has just been really fun.
Josh: Yeah. I've learned a lot. .
Victoria: I, I, yeah. It's been illuminating. It's been inspiring. It's been interesting. it's been counterintuitive a couple times. Mm-hmm. , it's, it's just been great. I really, it's paradox
Josh: in there.
Victoria: Lots of paradox, which we're coming to find. The more paradox there [01:16:00] is, the closer you are to the truth, so that mm-hmm. , you know, you've kind of been weaving a beautiful, a beautiful truth through paradox in this conversation. Mm-hmm. , I really appreciate it.
Wrapping Up and Future Plans
---
Victoria: I just can't wait to do it again. .
Josh: Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, We'll come up with a part two. We've got a lot more to talk about.
I know you do like some webinars and some trainings and things like that, but we'll make sure, and keep people in the loop if anybody's interested and kind of keeping track of you and your story and things that you're teaching and offering that happens.
Victoria: And I think you're in our, our Facebook group, our Holistic Horseman to Facebook group. Okay. So people can
Josh: Oh, cool.
Victoria: Reach out if they just wanna, after hearing the podcast, say thank you for that beautiful conversation.
They can find you in our Facebook group. And, and for anybody who lament about the future, this has just been a. , you know, or is worried, or, you know, whatever.
I just wanna say Holly Sylvie is part of our future, [01:17:00] and I, and I am just like so thankful and full of gratitude for that fact, so, mm-hmm. , thank you.
Josh: Yeah, thank you. I have a lot of hope and optimism.
Victoria: Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. .
Holly: Appreciate that. Yeah, definitely. I mean, I'm young, but I'm, I'm continuing to learn and I'm excited.
I'm ready to change the world. , I got a pair of socks, the other that said, um, I'm busy making a difference. Mom said, , mom got for me. I'm like, yeah. Every day. Yes.
Josh: Yeah. On that note, until next time, yes.
Victoria: Thank you. Thank you, Holly. We'll, we'll thank you guys. I appreciate it. Yeah. The pleasure's hours.
I hope you enjoyed the show today. We'd love for you to join our free sub stack community for the herd is calling connect with us, engage in thoughtful discussions and access exclusive content. Click the link nearby to subscribe. It's so easy and [01:18:00] totally free. We appreciate listening. And as always, may the horse be with you.
