Chrissy Podcast
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[00:00:00]
Introduction to Unmounted Programming
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Chrissy: Yes. We need to hire as an industry, a PR expert for unmounted programming. and I think sometimes it's like a consolation prize or a rainy day activity or something that we're just doing unmounted today. We don't get to ride today. But there's so much opportunity for richness and learning, and so many beneficial therapeutic things in there.
I think the,, rest of the industry needs to catch up a little and look at the many benefits of unmounted programming and how we can offer, more of this mindfulness, and a holistic based horsemanship, there are just so many rich opportunities to help more people in lots of different ways and incorporate all of this so yeah, PR campaign for unmounted programming,
there are a lot of people who are doing awesome things mm-hmm. , keep putting the word out there.
Victoria: Yes, please.
Welcome to The Herd is Calling Podcast
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Welcome to the herd is calling podcast. This is where we break [00:01:00] free from conventional norms to explore the art, science, and wonder of the horse human connection. I'm Josh Williams. And together with my wife, Victoria, we're your hosts. Our mission is to inspire. you to improve the lives of horses.
Subscribe to The Herd is calling on Substack for behind the scenes stories and unique content. Now let's get to the episode.
Josh: =Welcome to The Herd is Calling podcast today.
Meet Chrissy Stout: A Journey from Australia to Hawaii
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Josh: We are really excited and honored to have Chrissy Stout with us. I'm gonna read just a brief, bio to help everybody get to know her a little bit better before we bring her on. Chrissy Stout was born and raised in Australia, hailing from a long line of horse people with deep ties to farming, ranching, and rural living.
She is currently the program director at Haku Baldwin Center in Hawaii, a nonprofit providing equine [00:02:00] assisted services to youth and adults with diverse needs. Chrissy is a PATH International certified therapeutic Writing and structure, a PATH International Mentor and a horse-powered reading facilitator.
She is a Region 11 ambassador for Path International and was recognized as the region's credential professional of the year in 2022. Krissy also owns teaching aids for E A S A company specializing in adaptive visual aids to improve communication and enhance instruction inside and outside the arena.
She's passionate about creating a culture of mindful and compassionate horsemanship and empowering the next generation of equine professionals. Wow. Welcome Chrissy .
Chrissy: Yay. Thank you. Thank you. It's so fun to be here with you
Josh: both. we're really happy to have you. It is exciting. We've had a chance to get to know Chrissy over the last couple of months cuz she was in our program and it was really a treat to have her there because she.
Added so [00:03:00] many great aphorisms and sayings that we ended up adapting into the program and that the whole group started using. I really felt like we were learning as much from Chrissy as she was from us. And we're excited to be able to share you a little bit with the rest of the world
Chrissy: now.
Exactly. Thank you. Mutual admiration society. I learned so much from you both over the last couple months, and it's been, it's been amazing. It has really, it has really changed the way I teach, which is really cool. Nice.
Josh: Fascinating. Yeah. And I, I'm sure we'll come back to that. Love to learn more about that
Very cool.
Chrissy: Teaser. .
Victoria: Yeah. Teaser, like,
Josh: yeah. A teaser.
A Day in the Life at Haku Baldwin Center
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Josh: I wonder if you could start by just telling us a little bit about what your horse life is like these days, maybe like a snapshot of a typical day for you.
Chrissy: Sure. So I work at Hakuba Center in,~ um,~ in Hawaii on the island of Maui.
And I am at the barn several days a week. I love to get there first thing in the [00:04:00] morning,~ um,~ before every anyone else does. We have a team of very enthusiastic volunteers, so sometimes they get there before me or sometimes we're driving up at the same time. Uh, but when I get at the, to the barn, I'm usually setting out the schedule.
It has, uh, staff, volunteer horse assignments, the lesson schedule, anyt and equipment we need. And then,~ um,~ sometimes I'm bringing horses in. Sometimes,~ um,~ volunteers are bringing them in. Sometimes I'm setting up the arena, getting out t adapting and adjusting the tack as needed for each participant for that day.
Uh, sometimes I'm going over lesson plans for other instructors if they're the ones teaching,~ um,~ whether they're in training or they just need another set of eyes or ears on their plan for the day. And then we launch into lessons. They could be mounted or unmounted private or group,~ um,~ adults or youth veterans or civilians.
~Um, ~and then we have our awesome lessons. Then we wrap up, clean [00:05:00] up and head out. ~Um, ~sometimes I also have the privilege of schooling horses, which is where like my personal horse time comes in. I don't have horses of my own. So all the program horses I treat like my own sometimes. We're all a part of the family.
We call our,~ um,~ our horses are equine coworkers because mm-hmm. , we treat them with the same respect that we want to treat people with. ~Um, ~so yeah, that's a good day is when I get to the barn early and it just sets me up for success, whether I'm there for the whole day or just a few hours, so mm-hmm. . Yeah.
Josh: Snapshot. . Hmm. Sounds lovely. Yeah.
The Unique Environment of Upcountry Maui
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Josh: for those who don't know, I'd like to set the stage a little bit just for like where you are. Chrissy is on Maui, and the Haku Baldwin Center is in Upcountry, Maui. And I'm, I'm guessing you can probably see the ocean. Mm-hmm. from like, probably everywhere you stand. Wow.
Victoria: See, I actually didn't realize that until you just
Chrissy: said that.
Josh: [00:06:00] Yeah. A lot of people don't realize that the Hawaiian islands are the top of giant volcanoes. Mm-hmm. So when you're, when you say upcountry, it means you're just up a little bit. Mm-hmm. And,~ um,~ I had exaggerated it previously. You said you were at like 3000 feet, but you corrected me and said it was 1500 feet off of sea level.
Mm-hmm. . ~Um, ~but from sea floor, that's some like, what, 26,000 feet or something up the volcano? Mm-hmm. , they're the biggest volcanoes in the world measured from sea floor. So when you're up there, you have this vantage point looking back out at the ocean and it's a really beautiful place, beautiful climate.
Uh, there's these purple trees, flowering trees everywhere. Um mm-hmm. , it, it's a really amazing place. So,
Chrissy: It's, it's pretty stunning. We have,~ um,~ I think pe most people think of Hawaii as beaches and palm trees, but we also have countryside. We have our centers on 33 acres. We have green rolling hills and vistas and views.
And if you don't have a coastal [00:07:00] view or mountain view, you just drive down the road a little bit, , and then you, you can see we're usually very aware of where the ocean is and where the mountain is. ~Um, ~you know, Malka or Mackay, we use that as directionally north, south, east, west, whatever, Malka, Mackay. You just need to know where the ocean is and where the mountain is, and you're
Josh: good.
Wow. Yeah. Great. . I like that.
Victoria: Yeah. , that's
Josh: helpful. Yeah.
Programs and Populations at Haku Baldwin Center
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Josh: What type of populations are you really working with and helping At the Haku Baldwin Center?
Chrissy: Yeah. As, as you know Josh, I know you have some experience on Maui as well. We are kind of in the middle of the Pacific and that means that we are kind of a melting pot of all different types of cultures and people.
~Um, ~and we, at Hakuba Center, we have a program for military veterans. Uh, which is mounted and unmounted depending on the participant's needs and what we have available to offer. And [00:08:00] we also have a youth program, which occasionally we have adults in that program as well. Uh, those,~ um,~ that population,~ um,~ may have, uh, physical, cognitive, emotional,~ um,~ social,~ um,~ disabilities and abilities and challenges.
And, uh, we focus on what each person needs specifically and then pair them up with the horses, the instructors, the volunteers that they need to excel. Hmm.
Josh: Okay. Fascinating. Fascinating. Uh, we're gonna, I want to circle back to that more cuz I know we've had some really interesting conversations about language mm-hmm.
I want to highlight more, but I want to keep talking about Chrissy first before we , before we go down that road too much. So we'll just put a, maybe put a pin in that for a moment. . Yeah. Yeah.
Chrissy's Personal Journey with Horses
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Josh: But why were you first drawn to horses? Well, this is interesting. I had a really interesting conversation with my mom yesterday and I said, mom, I'm going on a podcast.
Chrissy: [00:09:00] Can you tell me who I am? So Oh, interesting. , good strategy. And she, right. ~Um, ~cause your mom knows. So she, and what, but what I started with, which caught her off guard a little bit, was interviewing her first and getting her story because, you know, we know that our, the generations before us are part of our story as well.
So she, uh, came from a long line of, we, we call them farming, in Australia, but in the US it would be called ranching. So a long line of ranchers. And she was telling me about beautiful experiences she had as a child. She had lots of older brothers,~ um,~ in this ranching family, and they would bring the cows in.
Her brothers would go off galloping. And she said, I would just do like a lovely soft cantor. They had the privilege of having all these well-trained horses. So she's like, I just got to cantor. I just squeezed gently and then we're off. So she, and she told me that she knew the sleeping patterns of the cows.
[00:10:00] She knew,~ um,~ where they like to sleep, how they like to sleep. She would go out first thing in the morning while they were still a little sleepy and gently guide them and bring them in. And she's like, my brothers would just go out like full ball. The cattles were all stressed, . Wow. They would get the job, they would all get the job done.
But she did in a way that was,~ um,~ compassionate and lovely and not even intentionally. That's just the way she liked it. And she, she just knew so much about, uh, these animals and it was just beautiful to hear a little bit more about her perspective, which was awesome. She also told me that , I did not like horses when I was a kid.
I was not the kid who took lots of lessons or did four h I was not,~ um,~ I don't have the same experience that a lot of my, uh, coworkers,~ um,~ have. I was the kid who wanted to sit in the shade and read books while other [00:11:00] people were writing. So my two sisters, I have an older and younger sister, and they were very much into horses.
We had the luxury of having lots of animals,~ um,~ where we lived, there's a picture of my older sister as an infant sitting on a horse. And then that was it for her. She just still hooked. And my mom said, they put me on a horse and I was just like, mm-hmm. . Nope, nope. At two years old, I was very clear that I did not want to be on top of the course.
~Um, ~so, and then when I was about eight, well, I was still around horses and we had horses, and I always thought they were beautiful and interesting. I just was not compelled like my sisters were. So when I was eight, I contracted a rare condition that led to a physical disability. So at eight years old, I couldn't ride even if I wanted to.
So that kind of further drew me away from horses. When I came to Maui, I found a volunteer opportunity that included horses and I figured I could probably learn how to be around them again. And then [00:12:00] all these years later, I'm still at that same place,~ um,~ teaching other people how to be around horses too.
So, ~um, ~my mom was very, she was still, she's still very surprised that I'm the child ~, um,~ of the three of her children that got certified and is now teaching to ride horses.
Josh: Wow. What a story. Yeah. And nobody would guess that you're from Australia by listening to you.
Chrissy: Yeah, , the accent comes and goes. When I talked to my mom yesterday, it just, it, it comes right back in. It does. Oh,
Josh: that's fascinating.
Chrissy: Don't study me too closely though. .
Josh: That's interesting. It's still
Chrissy: in there. I was always really good at accents and mimicking people. I think it, I just spent so much time observing as a kid because I couldn't participate in a lot of things and I just watched people and I listened to people and that accents have just always been really easy for me, and it just goes back and forth without too much
Josh: [00:13:00] effort.
Well, if you hang out with us much more, you'll start getting some Oregon draw. It's a little slow, we say Awesome. A lot. . This is the only two things I know for sure. My sister is from Southern California and mm-hmm. . She's always saying these things where I'm like, what? Like, you know, she's like, you guys are just on a different timeframe, you guys just
Victoria: Well, we know it takes most people 15 minutes to get there. We're we're giving you guys 30 minutes. Like, it's just like this
Chrissy: thing that sounds like Maui time. Yeah. Mm-hmm. With you in Hawaii. Yeah.
Victoria: Mm-hmm. . Got it.
The Power of Observation and Connection
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Victoria: I wonder,~ um,~ and this is totally off topic, sort of, do you do any impressions just based on your ability to observe people?
And
Chrissy: I reserve the right to refuse to answer that question. Okay. Nice. later. Later maybe. Duly noted. Not like celebrities, just people I know. Got it. Mm-hmm.
Victoria: So I just think it's [00:14:00] fascinating that you, you have this awareness of your ability or the skill that you acquired in observing mm-hmm.
people and being able to assimilate those observations and make meaning from them. I gotta wonder if that's what your special gift talent is with horses too, because that is so much of it. I think, so much of what we teach, what we talk about is just the ability to observe and to, read body language and understand what's going on, based on just watching
Yeah. What do you expound on that?
Chrissy: Yeah. horses are 100% body language and they observe us and what I'm learning from you guys as well, they're observing us every second, especially every second that we ask them to join us in our space. [00:15:00] So, yeah, I think we're doing ourselves and our horses a disservice if we're not taking the time to slow down and notice them and observe them.
And then if we are in the position of teaching others like the three of us are,~ um,~ it's important to impart that knowledge and create that space for people to have the joy of observing horses. And we learn so much about ourselves when we slow down and do that too. So, yes, definitely. I think it's a, a skill that can be learned and honed for sure.
Josh: It sounds like you had that, that's interesting. They call what we call ranches farms. Mm-hmm. in Australia too. That was interesting. But it, it sounds like you have some generational history around animals. Sounds like your mom was very attuned and sensitive. Mm-hmm. , it's something I learned,~ um,~ cause I grew up in central Oregon, which is like rancher area.
Mm-hmm. . And it's very, very [00:16:00] kind of the macho, rodeo centric. Like in fact, most ranchers around here now use, four wheelers to round up cattle. Yeah. ~Um, ~very few actually even use horses. when I started learning from Victoria, her background was in rain cow horse work, and she really explains that the best way to work in cattle is as quietly and as softly as possible because you don't want to stress the animal.
not only is that great for,~ um,~ just being kind and empathetic to the animal, but it's very practical too. You don't want to add stress. You don't want them to lose weight and burn extra calories. There's like a lot of really specific reasons for that. So it sounds like your, your mom was a real natural,~ um,~ cowgirl for lack of better words and.
Yeah, she was before her time. For sure. when you're talking I, it made me think of Temple Grandon and her, efforts to really change, the face of the cattle industry in particular, and how animals are handled in the, especially in the last,~ um,~ [00:17:00] days and moments of their lives. It's super important.
Chrissy: ~Um, ~every day is important for us to have this compassionate lens for horses. And, you know, when we think about horses and stress, it's really important to know the signs of a stressed horse and how they can all be so different. Like we are blessed with lots of draft horses at the barn and quarter horses and, uh, Morgan and,~ um,~ thoroughbreds.
And they're all so individual. And then, you know, breed specific draft horses can be really introverted and, their like, level five stress is another horse's, you know, level 12. So learning what each horse needs is so important,~ um,~ and doing what we can, like really, really assessing what we're doing every single moment from when we're walking out to the past.
So when we're walking them back to the pasture at the end of the day or the end of [00:18:00] their, uh, lesson time and reducing the amount of stress that they have to take on the unnecessary stress. Mm-hmm. , there are so many things that we do with and around horses that,~ um,~ we don't know are stressful for them.
and taking a wider lens and looking at how we can change our processes. ~Um, ~you know, the number of people that are handling horses, which is huge when you're talking about a therapeutic riding center in particular, when you have people coming in to feed and sometimes those people are different every day.
Sometimes there's multiple people cleaning stalls, turning in, uh, turning out, bringing back in, hor uh, grooming, horse leading, tacking up, sidewalkers riders, parents, participants, instructors, like those horses are getting so much feedback and they're having to tolerate and accept so much from the humans around them and things touching them tack, adaptive tack [00:19:00] falls, flying over their heads.
Like all kinds of things that we,~ um,~ we. Try to desensitize horses too, but they never lose those,~ um,~ they never lose their nervous system that that doesn't change. They never lose their, all of the instincts that they need to survive. Those never change, no matter how much we try to assimilate them into what we're doing.
~Um, ~and we can have horses do all of the things that we love for them to do to, especially in a, in a healing practice. ~Um, ~we can still do all those things and do our best to reduce as much stress as possible and, you know, pay attention to all of the human things we do that are really unnecessary and detrimental in some cases.
Super important.
Victoria: Yeah, just the confusion I see sometimes between human, I mean, that's a big one. It's just like this lack of clarity mm-hmm. , ~um, ~that is happening between horse [00:20:00] and human,~ um,~ and back and forth, you know, vice versa. That that's where things start to get usually con,~ um,~ for lack of better words, just can be scary.
Mm-hmm. can be deflating. ~Um, ~and yeah, just what you're talking about with the, sensory overload mm-hmm. that we tend to put on horses on a daily. . ~Um, ~and, and those kind of programs, you know, we ran a kids' program that,~ um,~ that was, cranking all the time. the assisted learning stuff, the therapy stuff, all of that stuff asked so much of the horses.
then on top of it, just taking into account that we know horses have such a sensitive, there's so much sensitive, more sensitive than we can ever even imagine. to me that is just like, let's just dig into that. And in that, when we start unpacking all of that and working with that [00:21:00] information, I think poof.
That's where things can get really good.
Chrissy: Yeah. And the, the more you notice, the more you notice that you need to notice. Hmm. Yes. If that makes sense. It's, you know, horse people know. The more you know, the more you know, you don't know about horses, there's always an opportunity to learn more, learn from different people, be open-minded, be okay with being wrong and trying again, all of that stuff.
~Um, ~yeah, horses are just fantastic at allowing us to do so many things that we wanna do with them. ~Um, ~well
Victoria: in your, you know, when you mentioned that you,~ um,~ , you kind of just were a, a natural born observer or you, or, and probably both. And you had a lot of opportunity to cultivate that talent or that skill, uh, just through your personality and this and, and your life experience and all the corner kind of organic things that go into that.[00:22:00]
Yeah. I mean, just you are uniquely positioned to put that lens into your horsemanship practice, which I think is very cool.
Chrissy: Yeah. And even something that I learned from, my horse journey from both of you is just one example of an exercise.
Implementing Mindfulness with Horses
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Chrissy: It's silent and half speed. And so that, like Josh you were talking about earlier about how, uh, animals respond to silence.
They don't need all the noise that we make around them. They don't need us on our phones. They don't need us having a side conversation. They don't need us filling the space with talking because we we're nervous or, you know, whatever the reason may be. So we, uh, we have been implementing in our pre-lesson grooming and post-lesson grooming, silent and half speed.
Which is pretty challenging for all used to talking. And as an instructor, I talk a lot, so , so I am right there with [00:23:00] everyone, you know, reminding ourselves to, to slow down and only talk when we need to, when we're getting stuff ready. I also created, especially in our veterans program, where community building is so important and we want participants to, you know, build relationships with each other and build relationships with,~ um,~ instructors in the arena or wherever we're,~ um,~ having our sessions.
I created a space for talking people and then a space for silence around horses. So, which worked, it's like, yeah, if you wanna come have a chat, let's walk over here. Which was a space,~ um,~ away from horses, but we could still see everything happening. ~Um, ~but we're the talking people overstanding. And so that's the silent part.
The half speed part is just slowing down. So that could be, it's just slowing down your movement, slowing down your thinking, slowing down your breathing. And the amazing thing is that immediately the horses relaxed [00:24:00] more. Like we took, we take some pride in how relaxed and calm our horses are, but they relaxed even more.
They just like sunk in and like, finally the humans are breathing, quiet. This is great. Some of 'em fell asleep on the cross ties, which we don't love them to do. We want to still be paying attention to their surroundings. But it was amazing. And we, I had one veteran come up to me and say, the following week she said, I told my therapist about this.
And my therapist was like, do more of that. Do more mindfulness. So we, you know, making sure before you and approach the horse, we check what's happening inside our body. We. ~Um, ~do some deep breathing. We wait for the horse to connect with us before we approach them, which is kind of like them giving consent before we touch them or ask anything of them.
And then we silently and slowly halter them, bring them in, groom them, get them ready for their lesson. [00:25:00] Sometimes grooming is the lesson, it's amazing what we can observe when we slow down and what we realize, we're missing the information that horses are giving us when we're talking, when we're rushing, we're missing signals, we're missing information that the horse is communicating to us, which is, it's just this beautiful space to be in.
When we are watching the horses, they're communicating with their bodies all the time. They're watching what we're doing with our bodies all the time. And even if we're not talking, our bodies can be exuding so much energy. So being aware of your body language when you are doing swollen and half speed can be so awesome too.
So just one example of how, uh, like a practical example of how we can implement, because some of these are concepts that everyone's like, yeah, sure, that sounds great, but how do I do that? Or, I thought I was already doing that . Right, right. Have an example of how to do that better. So it's an incredible experience [00:26:00] to slow down more and notice.
Josh: Beautifully said. It's, yeah. We, you know, we talk a lot about how horses have their own language and culture mm-hmm. , and I think it's safe to say that that language and culture doesn't include human words and , and generally speaking, it's at a much slower pace. You know, not, not to say they, they're also very fast and can react very fast, but I think being in a slow, calm state is so critical for them to feel safe and to feel secure.
And I wonder, or actually, first I wanted to say too, that like your, your attitude of learning and like you said, the more we know and the more we don't know, we agree with that a hundred percent. ~Um, ~a lot of times in the horse world that isn't necessarily the vibe. I think there's,~ um,~ some guarding, there's some lack of [00:27:00] vulnerability happening, you know, whatever it is,~ um,~ posturing, et cetera, et cetera.
And something that we really appreciated about you was you brought that concept of beginner's mind to what you do. Like when you showed up to our calls, you're, you're obviously an expert in your own right. you're the director of program. You work with people every day, but you came every day with like a notepad and just like ready to learn, ready to learn.
And, and we feel that way too. Every time we come with a horse, like we, we feel we're students of the horse, not experts of the horse. And ~um, ~and that just opens up the possibilities, you know? That's why beginner's mind is, is one of our primary manifestos. But I was curious too, because you have a community based program, you want people to come there and be able to connect, cuz that's very important for healing and, and uh, and wellness.
And I wonder if you've noticed the silent half speed actually improves that even though during that time you're not able to talk to each other. But do you [00:28:00] find like more, I'm visualizing after that people connecting more deeply, maybe later.
Chrissy: Absolutely because their heart rates are dropping and their nervous systems are cycling back down. Mm-hmm. . So when we're in that space, we are more open, we're, uh, less anxious. We are able to notice things more, we're more in tune with our own body. We can communicate better with the horses. The horses have also cycled back down and their nervous systems are in check.
When we do all of that as staff and volunteers, like we're setting the participants up for success as well, because when they arrive, we all wanna be in a state that's like starting from scratch, resetting, starting from zero. ~Um, ~and yeah, I definitely think it's beneficial for building community,~ um,~ building better relationships between horses and people.
~Um, ~our volunteer team is [00:29:00] incredible and they have so much compassion, empathy for horses, in our program. And I know they take it very seriously. And when we, you know, I always say when we know better, we do better. Mm-hmm. . So sometimes it's really hard to have those realizations that, you know, you were contributing to a horse's,~ um,~ anxiety or activat.
So we just, you know, every day is a new opportunity to reset, and every day is a new opportunity to make those connections. That courses need to be connected. They live in herds, they need to be connected. They can connect with us if we're in a space that is conducive to connecting and noticing them and being compassionate.
~Um, ~yeah, it's, it's imperative for building community.
Josh: It's almost as if the things that help us be better with horses help us be better with life. . Yeah.
Chrissy: It's annoying like that, isn't it, ? It's funny. Yeah. [00:30:00] If we're, we're better at human, we're better at .
Victoria: It's a loop. It's one of those infinity. Yeah, sir.
Like a ven diagram diagram. It's, it's all the, but
Josh: fortunately I think those of us that are particularly awkward, human eating, you can work on your skills with horses, , you don't have to start with the human eating. You can go, I'm gonna work on my horse skills first. So then automatically your human eating will improve.
Chrissy: Yeah. And a lot of people who come to us, I mean, we all have those things to some degree, but people who come to us with, you know, that's a characteristic of their diagnosis. You know, the way that they move through life.
The Therapeutic Benefits of Equine Interaction
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Chrissy: They might have, uh, trouble connecting or communicating, and then you have, you introduce a horse into the picture and there's just all of this intrinsic motivation that they have, that there's nothing that you could do in a classroom or in,~ um,~ a clinical setting that can replicate that.
~Um, ~unless you put a horse in a room and then, it's really incredible. I just keep coming back to [00:31:00] saying words like incredible and awesome, and sometimes
Victoria: we hear you. Yeah. I mean, you're speaking our language, Awesome. Awesome.
Josh: Yeah, totally.
Awesome. Awesome.
Chrissy: ~Um, ~Brad? Yeah,
Victoria: but I am thinking about heart coherence. Oh, yeah. When, mm-hmm. , when you're talking about just everybody's nervous systems, getting back to regulation, back to homeostasis or into that, healthy cycle, that natural cycle. ~Um, ~and then the heart coherence thing where, , then everybody's beating off of everybody else in a really good way.
And,~ um,~ and that's connection. I mean, I think that's the, when we say magic, when we say awesome, when we say incredible, there, there is some stuff we're learning, some science that we're learning that is like physiologically, energetically there are things happening interspecies wise with our nervous system.
~Um, ~that really [00:32:00] is this recipe for connection. And when folks that, you know, seek services and have sought services for healing or growth,~ um,~ or, you know, any kind of assistance figuring out. what their next move is or how to relate to people better, or how to learn about themselves a little bit more.
Horses just are this being that can offer that. I think because of that awesome potential for connection that is like immediate, if you're able to plug in,~ um,~ you know, on that nervous system level, it's just like, boom, now we're connected. What, what can you show me about myself?
But it's, something that is real and it's why equine therapy is so, , ~um, ~effective. Yeah. Valid and effective. Yeah. Right, right. And, and equine assisted learning.
Mm-hmm. . ~Um, ~so yeah, I, I I just think we're gonna continue to learn the why of [00:33:00] that, but we know it's a thing.
Chrissy: Yeah. And there's science , when we don't have the science to describe those feelings, and sometimes even if we do, we call, we say things like awesome and magical because we all feel it, you know, and the horses feel it and they give us immediate feedback, immediate 100% honest feedback every second we're with them.
And it has so much potential to. Challenge us. And then it's the challenge piece through that challenge. And on the other side of the challenge is trust and accomplishment and confidence. And it's, we also get to like, be around horses and smell them and touch them and, and watch them. And it's just such a rich experience that encompasses all of the senses.
And even for people who, struggle with sensory overload, just [00:34:00] being in the space with the horses can help and co-regulating can help,~ um,~ with sensory regulation. Mm-hmm. , it's, it's ama it's amazing. , , .
Josh: So magical.
Victoria: It's awesome. . Yes. Yes.
Chrissy: All of those things. Research and science out there too, if anyone's interested.
just Google it. It's fascinating. Mm-hmm. .
Josh: I wonder just like this magical path, this awesome ability of horses, like what about you? What specifically? what? I mean, I know you said you had an opportunity there and you were thinking, but I'd like to, you kind of went over that little quick. I wonder if we could dig down a little deeper, maybe, maybe go down a few layers.
Yeah. What
Victoria: drew you to where you're at now?
Chrissy's Path to Becoming an Instructor
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Chrissy: So I, when I was talking to my mom, we both agreed that I, I always wanted to be a teacher. I wanted to be a preschool teacher. I was a nerdy little before I'm kid [00:35:00] and I always related to the librarian. I'm like, I would go in sharp pencils for the librarian and
I always related to the teachers so well because I, I was just fascinated with the way they communicated new information. It was just so interesting to me. And not just the information, but the way they communicated it, the way they were. Now I know that they were lesson planning, which is what I do, . Uh, but I, at the time it was just like, they're just so amazing and creative and I, when I came back, I didn't know that I was getting into this like, realm of teaching and instructing people. I just wanted to, I saw this opportunity to volunteer with kids and I'm like, cool. Volunteer with kids. I had another couple of volunteer opportunities that I did when I first got to Maui and they, interestingly, they were like toys for Tots.
I was selecting and packaging, uh, Christmas presents for kiddos, but there were no [00:36:00] kids around. It was just me in a warehouse wrapping presents for kids. I'm like, I don't know if this is gonna cut it . I thought I was gonna be with children and working with children. So when I, uh, saw this opportunity at the barn, I'm like, I think I, I could learn how to be around horses again.
And I discovered that I really, what I really wanted to do was teach. And what I've also discovered in the last five or five to seven years is that I also love to teach adults, which I didn't think that I did to do our veterans program started, uh, in 2013. And I, it took me a little while to figure out that I, that's something that I wanted to move into.
And I, what I learned is that horsemanship is teachable to anyone. Being around horses can teach us so much, and you can teach anyone the skills that they need to be around horses because all you have to do is just be a present human right. That's all you have to do. ~Um, ~so [00:37:00] that's, that's where. Drew me in and, I'm still there 14 years later, at the same barn.
And I just, I was just hooked from the first day. This is what these people are doing here is incredible. There are times where they had too many volunteers in the, the program director at the time would call me and she'd say, you know, we don't really need people today. You can take a day off.
I'm like, well, can I just
Victoria: come sweep
Chrissy: be there? Sure you can come in and sweep. I never wanted it to end. I always wanted to be in the vicinity. And then when I,~ um,~ found out that I could actually become an instructor, that was really cool.
Victoria: what did that look like when, the opportunity to become an instructor came up and, your journey into Path International?
How did that all unfold?
Journey to Becoming a Certified Instructor
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Chrissy: Well, when I first started, there weren't PATH certified instructors at our center. The assistant director at the time, somehow she could tell that I might have the talent for [00:38:00] teaching. And she just, in a lesson, it's just like, you're gonna teach this part of the lesson.
What, and just slowly she kept,~ um,~ inviting me to come in and teach instead of being a sidewalker or a horse leader. And, and that developed a little bit and, and the program director and assistant director retired and another person came in who was already,~ um,~ a pretty accomplished writing instructor.
She did dressage in Western and all the things. so those two positions were opened and we became director and assistant director. And then we decided, uh, that we would take our team of four instructors and get us all certified, which is quite the feat to do that in a remote location because it requires a lot of mentorship and getting a lot of hours in.
And it used to also require, uh, so the evaluation portion, it was a live evaluation. We flew evaluators [00:39:00] in from,~ um,~ the US mainland and it used to require a writing test. So the instructor would have to do a writing test to show they had writing skills in order to be able to teach those skills. And then there was a teaching test, teaching, uh, a group of writers,~ um,~ with disabilities to see that you could actually,~ um,~ incorporate goals into lessons and teach a lesson.
You really have to know your skills if you're breaking them down and doing a task analysis. .
Overcoming Challenges and Finding Accommodations
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Chrissy: So of course I looked at that and thought, well, as a non-writer, I don't know if I can do that. So that's pretty disappointing. And then I found out, because Path International is an organization that is passionate about adapting services so people can enjoy horses and,~ um,~ have joy and healing around horses.
There was an accommodation that I could apply for. So my accommodation was to teach another rider through that, uh, warm up the walk truck cantor lesson and the cool down [00:40:00] as if I were riding. So interestingly, well, interestingly, I passed, which was shocking to me. I remember crying in front of the two evaluators in our, our private debrief when they tell everyone if they passed or not.
And I just looked at them and said, really? Are you sure? ? Are you sure that I passed that writing test? And they said, absolutely, absolutely, you did. So I passed the writing test and then I, I passed the teaching test with a little bit better scores than the writing test. And it was just, it changed my life that I could do something, that I could learn to teach something.
I was only able to observe and not feel. And as instructors, we know that one of the most diff as writing instructors in particular, one of the most difficult things is teaching feel. . Mm-hmm. , that's kinda a concept. And so you, you can't feel it while you're teaching it, but sometimes you can. So I [00:41:00] found that I could feel it and see it, and then see it and feel it, and was able to somehow figure out how to teach it, how to get, uh, certified to teach, walk truck counter lessons to people bodied adults.
Wow. So, I'm still not sure how I did that. It took a couple years for,~ um,~ for us to really put in all of the work and make sure we were, dotting the i's and crossing the T's. So we,~ um,~ interestingly also now the certification involves,~ um,~ not writing. So they, the, actually, the test is teaching an able bodied person through a walk track counter test.
So the accommodation that I did years ago is actually the, uh, the test now, which means that I have a perspective that I can give people that I'm mentoring, like, yes, you can do it because I did it , I did it. You can absolutely do it.
The Power of Community and Mentorship
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Chrissy: So that's been,~ um,~ an, an interesting twist in the past certification that,~ um,~ that was kind of thrilling for me because I, I can help people even more [00:42:00] through that part of the test.
Josh: God, that's a wonderful story, and congratulations on that. That is a massive accomplishment. Yeah, we, it, it was a game changer. . the team of instructors who they have all left me now ~, um,~ uh, we have a, have a new team, but those other three instructors, we called ourselves the pod because we we had to be so connected and have study groups and all of those things in order to pass this really hard, uh, certification.
A Life-Changing Backpacking Trip
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Chrissy: So three of us went, in the week or two after, we went and did like a two day backpacking trip with a few other people,~ um,~ through and Josh, you know, Holly, AK pretty well. So we went into the crater, or more correctly the Erosional depression, uh, and hiked all the way to Poll Co. I am was not an hiker before that.
I did some pretty intense training,~ um,~ beforehand, mostly on my treadmill inside my house in order to make that happen. And because of my physical disability is another thing, I'm just [00:43:00] like, there's no way I could do that. But I had,~ um,~ mentors in friends in my friend group, in my instructor group that, that had all the experience and said, well, I know that you can, so let's go do it
So, uh, I'd never been backpacking before, so, you know, why not go do the hardest hike on Maui? ~Um, ~and yeah, there were moments where I, while I was doing it, I was just like, there's no way I'm gonna, they're gonna have to bring a helicopter in and lift me outta here because there's no way I could finish it.
Like, you know, you have, I had new hiking boots, which was a terrible mistake, blisters on my feet, like muscles so sore. And, but there's just this mode that you get into sometimes , where you're, you just get in the zone and you just, and you, I don't know if it's embodiment or disembodiment at that point, maybe a little close back and forth.
And I, there's a point where you're [00:44:00] at the, if you do the loop, starting at the visitor center and end up going up switchbacks. So we did that loop and you're standing at the, the bottom of this huge cliff, and the only way up is this series of switchbacks because it is so steep. And I thought, I'm just, I'm not gonna do it.
No. That night when we're sleeping in the tent, I'm like, I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna start walking out of here. I'm just gonna leave a note, and I'm gonna leave, and then I'm gonna use my phone to call a helicopter and be over. So, and I, uh, we did it,~ um,~ through lots of emotions. I did it. One of my new friends who I hadn't met before this backpacking trip.
She. Was literally pushing me up. Cuz some of the steps are really,~ um,~ the incline of the steps are really steep. So she was, there were points where she had to push my backpack up to help me get up the steps. And it was just like this team effort of physical and [00:45:00] emotional support that we all got through it.
And so that on top of the week or two before getting the certification, it just, that changed my life. So 2017 was a huge, incredible year for me. . It was an incredible year.
Josh: It's so beautiful. It was to see what you're capable of in moments like that and then to see what a far exceeds what you thought was
Victoria: possible.
And just, I hear just the theme too is community connection with people, friendship, network, whatever you want. Partners, whatever, pods, , whatever you wanna call 'em. Mm-hmm. . ~Um, ~boy, we can't do it without that. We can't do the things that, that kind of surprise us about ourselves without,~ um,~ that support.
Hey friends, Josh here, we've launched a free community for the herd is calling it's on substack [00:46:00] subscribe to join thoughtful discussions and access exclusive content. It's as easy to use a social media, but so much better because social media, am I right? In the words of John Lennon. A dream you dream alone is only a dream, but a dream you dream together is reality.
Like the wisdom of the herd, we are stronger together. Click the link nearby to subscribe and get in on the conversation. Now back to the pod.
The Importance of Feel in Riding
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Victoria: I was just going back to what you were saying about feel and how teaching something that you haven't yourself, necessarily, like, specifically writing in this case, felt, or if you did, it wouldn't feel the same for you.
And I just think the intuition, the feel that that takes is like a whole nother level. that's feel
Chrissy: mm-hmm. . Yeah. I had, a veteran the other day, he was saying something, he's like, I don't even know what it was. And I, I did this and I just, and I just went, [00:47:00] whoosh.
And I said, that's feel. Mm-hmm. . He's like, oh, that's what it is. And he's riding with this, had a long history of riding, came back to horses,~ um,~ as a retired person and, Like that's what feel is. It's this elusive thing, but it's just, you feel it, you stop thinking about it and you just feel it.
So it, it's an interesting paradox the thinking versus feeling and where all of that plays in, because you have to think about things, but then you also have to feel things. So it's like we have to sink down into our body and feel the things that we've been thinking about in order to make them stick and make them real.
Victoria: It's almost like plugging into something that's out there that we all have access to that maybe, by ourselves, we can't quite get it. But it's kinda like, I think about Elizabeth Gilbert's, she wrote a book about creativity. . and she's not the first one to talk about creativity this way and art this way, but like, there's just all these ideas floating around and [00:48:00] if you're in the right place, physically, emotionally, mentally, to, plug into that, it's all there for the taking.
And I just think about that in terms of feel with horses, with relationships, with people. it's kind of, to me, the golden thread that runs through all this stuff we're talking about. It's just this universal flow that we somehow from our culture or you know, our traumas and any, and all of it in between have been systematically in a lot of ways disconnected from it.
And that's why horses are so cool, they're like this Pathfinder for us, like, follow me. ~Um, ~I'll show you a way to, to tap into this.
Chrissy: when you're mentioning trauma too, I love how Glenn and Doyle, I know she's for all fans of hers.
Yeah. , when she says, when our body experiences trauma of any level, which every body has experienced trauma, if you've lived in the world, our brain has to leave in order to survive sometimes. [00:49:00] Mm-hmm. . So we all have pieces of us where,~ um,~ we need to sync back down into our body, one to continue being connected to people and horses.
the other is to heal that piece. and horses are 100% feeling embodied beings all the time, they can mirror that back to us so well, we had lots of cool conversations about mirroring neurons I don't have all the language to explain that, but it was fascinating we all have had those moments where we, hopefully we realized that when we're with horses, our energy, our anxieties can feed into.
a horse's behavior if we're able to affect change in our own bodies, in our own minds, it can help the horse come back down too. they have lots of information for us about ourselves, , they're just awesome .
Josh: It really is. Yeah. I love that you brought up paradox earlier, which is of course something we're always seeking Yung said something, [00:50:00] and I'm totally paraphrasing so I have it in front of me, but that, that when you are in the presence of paradox, you know, you're touching up upon the truth and uh, right. Yeah. Isn't that interesting? And I love, your story is so full paradox, and I notice a lot in your language, and I've learned from you even more so that the importance of language.
But I know I've seen a lot in just conversation with you that you emphasize the word and when you're talking mm-hmm. , and I know that's very intentional. Mm-hmm. , uh, that things are not always,~ um,~ ORs, you know, that there is an and a statement, and that speaks to paradox. we learned a lot from you about the not writing part and the, and we even change the name of one of our modules.
Mm-hmm. , we do a play on the letters of journey. So it's seven letters, seven modules. And in was originally called, now we. Which is the point where we talk about equitation and, feel in the saddle and things like that. [00:51:00] And we changed the name to now we Go together, which was homage to,~ um,~ Tom Dorrance saying, first we go with the horse, then the horse goes with us, and then we go together.
So it's towards the end of the journey. So the idea is that we're going together, but I think that you have a lot to offer the equestrian world in your story because even for people that are able to ride in the traditional sense, something that we found in our teaching, this is where I love how our world's lined up in a really neat way.
Was that the groundwork or as you helped us even with that language of going more unmounted because groundwork is really a component of unmounted time with horses.
The Value of Unmounted Horsemanship
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Josh: that there's so much there that oftentimes people miss some of that, you know, they skip over that trying to get to the writing part.
We just think the unmounted part is so important from a lot of the things you just said. All the magical awesome stuff, the heart coherence, the [00:52:00] mirror neurons, however you wanna describe it. There are many different ways, the connection piece that all happens on the ground and there's so many.
applications for that from therapy to, and volunteers to the adaptive writing community at large. A lot of that is done there and there's even things like ground driving to where you can still practice, feel of rains and things like that.
Victoria: I hadn't bought your body language and the body language.
Your hips and yeah, I mean, it's not just, just rains even in
Josh: that regard, it's really everything. then of course we talk a lot about visualization and, and we refer to,~ um,~ different traditions like Sally Swift's, idio, kenesis background from Dominique Barbie's, French classical dressage lineage, where they talk about,~ um,~ the picture in your mind.
so much of it is actually formed in your mind. And we can get really esoteric where it's like, well, where does the mind stop and the world begins, you know? But we're not gonna go there right now. Not yet . But we have that conversation a few [00:53:00] days ago. And I'm parar phrasing here a little bit, ,~ um,~ you said I feel like we should run a PSA campaign for Unmounted Horsemanship.
Chrissy: Yes. We need to hire as an industry, a PR expert for unmounted programming. and I think it's a, sometimes it's like a consolation prize or a rainy day activity or something that we're just doing unmounted today. We don't get to ride today. But there's so much opportunity for richness and learning, uh, and so many beneficial therapeutic things in there.
There are people who can't ride, and I know that, well, I'm a non-writer, there are programs that are exclusively unmounted. Of course, they know the benefits of Unmounted program. There are centers who treat unmounted programming and mounted programming or writing programming, equally, which is awesome.
so I think the, the rest of us, the rest of the industry needs to catch up a little and really look at the many [00:54:00] benefits of unmounted programming and how we can offer, we often refer to it as alternative programming or alternative options to writing for people who either maybe they were writing and,~ um,~ you know, they have a precaution or a contraindication that means that their writing is no longer appropriate or they come to us not being able to ride.
and we might call it, make sure we have alternative options for them. I think they're just options. I'm, I'm getting a little tired of the word alternative. Yeah. in so many avenues. I think they're just options. They're options for people. what we do as fast instructors is pair people up with the program that works best for them if we have the luxury of having multiple programs.
Mindfulness and Holistic Horsemanship
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Chrissy: it's something that we can look at for future planning of how we can incorporate more of this mindfulness,~ um,~ and ho and a holistic based horsemanship, especially if we're not offering therapy services. If we're not already doing e a P or ~um, ~e F. Or equine assisted psychotherapy, or equine [00:55:00] facilitated psychotherapy for, those are not familiar with all of the acronyms,~ um,~ and initials that we use in, in,~ um,~ our world.
there there are just so many rich opportunities to help more people in lots of different ways and incorporate all of this I know as riding instructors sometimes we, we wanna get people on the horses as soon as possible, but there is, there is definitely an argument for starting on the ground.
I mean, we literally start on the ground and finish it on the ground. But as far as doing mindful horsemanship and groundwork, start on the ground, finish on the ground, and then keep coming back to it, keep coming back to it. I feel like riding is just one portion of our time with horses. so yeah, PR campaign for unmounted programming,
there are a lot of people who are doing awesome things and already know all of the awesome things about amanta programming that mm-hmm. , keep putting the word out there.
Victoria: Yes, please. I mean, I I
Chrissy: doing a great job at that. I love it. [00:56:00]
Victoria: You guys are on the nice Chrissy approves. That's, that's well,
Josh: no.
Means a lot. I do appreciate that. Cuz we were feeling like that was really important. And we do emphasize that. That's why originally the now we ride wasn't until J O U R N, it wasn't until week five anyway, technic seven technically.
Victoria: And if you go into that module, it's very little like, mostly the preparation for mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. becoming mounted. It was like all about the way you, get your tours, teched up the, the routine you do before you get on its mm-hmm. , I have been a writing instructor for many years and want all of my students to probably spend, I would say 70% more time on the ground than they do.
And I'm their instructor and already, like, that's sort of my program. but it still becomes very hard. Mm-hmm. , uh, because yes, people just have this thing that you gotta ride, you gotta ride. That's sort of the thing. And it's just so not, it's like, like you [00:57:00] said, it's one piece, it's one auction, it's one.
Mm-hmm. path, you can go down mm-hmm. . And if you do that, Dang. Sure. Better be coming back to groundwork a lot because you're gonna have, when you talk about cycles mm-hmm. , you have a lot of repair to do. Cause that's humans. Once we get on, we're going to be making all sorts of mistakes and doing all sorts of things that,~ um,~ we need to come back to the ground.
And like our friend Ty says, ask the horse for forgiveness . Yes. And learn from some of the, the data we picked up when, when we were trying new things and, do that repair on the ground and keep cultivating the relationship on the ground and keep learning more on the ground. I'm wish that was more a thing and we are gonna make it more
Chrissy: of a
Josh: thing.
Yeah. No, that's, I appreciate Christie helping mm-hmm. bring that up more because it's not like we work with a lot of people that are writing in a more traditional sense of the word here locally, but [00:58:00] I know there's so many people that don't necessarily even want to ride or not able to ride, or if they're like volunteering, say at a barn like yours, they're not, that's just not even on an option.
Mm-hmm. . Yeah. But they still need to learn all the same stuff that we need to learn about horse language and culture and need to learn about. How things work, how the horses' senses see the world, how they should react, how to read behavior to stay safe, to keep their people you're working with, safe to, have fun.
Mm-hmm. to be able to enjoy. Cuz when you, it's kinda like if I was visit visiting another country and if I didn't know any language or culture, I'm gonna be confused and kind of lost and probably high anxiety and breaking into a sweat and just not sure if I'm doing the right thing at any time. And that's not very relaxing or fun, so mm-hmm.
So when you're able to settle into that, it's just a lot funner. And, and I love that side of things. ~Um, ~not only because it helps those folks that I think sometimes it just sort of gets passed over. [00:59:00] You try to pick up what you can from the riding community. ~Um, ~and then what that does is it's like it forms a feedback loop where then they become the best advocates for the horse and it becomes this healthy cycle of give and take rather than just take, take, take, which so much of the human animal world is just take, take, take.
Chrissy: Yeah. Absolutely. I always try to remind people how important the Unmounted work is, even if, in some situations a participant comes and the horse is already groomed for them, they're already tacked up for them, already has the bridal on, they're handed their horse,
but it's that moment, even that moment where you're handed a horse who's ready for you, you then need to connect with that horse before you even ask them to walk on. Mm-hmm. . Because if you're, taking the reins and giving them a tap, and pulling on the bridal and asking them to walk on, like, you've missed, you've missed a huge opportunity to make your ride better.
Mm-hmm. , if you're blowing past all of the horse's [01:00:00] signals, we have one horse in particular who's an excellent teacher. He's very sensitive. You guys know who he is cuz I talk him about a lot. , that exact situation with a participant just last week and we'd already, it was his second ride on him, but he was familiar with that horse from years ago.
and he just went just from habit. Just went and took the reins and like, gave him, gave the horse a tap,~ um,~ just behind his girth and the horse like, didn't move. I'm like, well, okay, let's reset. So let's use the things we learned about him under saddle last week and how your ask on a big draft horse, like your one level asks for your leg aid.
For a draft horse for this horse. That's his five. Mm-hmm. . Reset and ask the horse, like, take a deep breath and check in with your horse. Look at his body language. Is his, is his neck tense? Is his body tense? Like maybe you need to stand there and breathe. Breathe with him a little bit more. Soften your body, give some [01:01:00] more slack in the reigns.
And he took a deep breath, checked in with a horse and gently asked the horse to walk on. And he did. Hmm hmm. If we're getting into this like push pull battle with the horses before we even get on the horse is more likely to be just tolerating us rather than relaxing in and going with us.
I think there, there's so much opportunity to reassess everything we do with horses it's exhausting work sometimes to analyze everything we're doing. But on the other side of that is so much awesomeness we really owe it to our horses to keep learning and to keep doing a better job at every moment we have with them.
Josh: Yeah. Lovely. Yeah, I love how you used the word opportunity there too, because so much of our culture in society, ~um, ~we blaze over connection, vulnerability for variety of reasons. like, maybe you have the horse there, if I, if I'm a student and maybe I do want to connect, but I'm not sure how, and I [01:02:00] don't wanna look down mm-hmm.
So I'm like, okay, let's just go, you know? Yes. So then you missed that opportunity. ~Um, ~or maybe you're not even thinking about it cuz it's just not part of the vernacular of daily activity in, Western society particularly. I love how you said that. And I'm curious too, cuz you're in such a unique position having now you mentor other teachers.
~Um, ~you've been involved with PATH for a long time. You've been involved with your barn for a lot longer than that. What do you think the industry that you're in, what do you think it could use? What do you think it's, it's missing or where would you like to see it go in the future?
Chrissy: I think our industry is full of an credible amount of incredibly caring people.
I mean, we don't come into this work for. the money or the accolades or anything like that. It's really hard work. It can be really exhausting work. ~Um, ~many, many people in centers, instructors are also the program director and the volunteer coordinator and wearing so many hats. So saying do more [01:03:00] things or do a better job is often not what people wanna hear, but if this kind of new perspective,~ um,~ can add to your existing equine welfare program ~ um,~ and your equine enrichment program, if you can think of it like just boosting the existing way that you do with horses.
And you guys have a lovely way to package all of this. ~Um, ~not that it's not hard work, but it's simple. you bring like really simple instruction and lots of actionable items and it's incredibly compassionate,~ um,~ empathetic way of presenting the information and supporting people. so everyone should do your course, first of all,
don't just think about it like for you, like your volunteer team, like they're there to serve and to help and to maybe get more time with horses if they don't have their own or get more time with people. And there's so many ways that we can. Be more mindful and incorporate this kind of practice into anything we're doing.[01:04:00]
Anything, any part, like our staff meetings, all of the above.
Josh: I love how you, qualified everything you said with like, this is an industry full of caring, loving people who are giving their all mm-hmm. , ~um, ~and probably have very little left in the tank in many different ways.
Energetically, resource wise. I mean, just running a barn and not going underwater financially is extremely difficult. Uh, we, we ran a for-profit boarding barn. It could barely keep that above water . I mean, we were just kinda like breaking even and taking care of 20 horses, you know? So horses are expensive.
Yeah. And the in the work and the labor and to do it correctly and to manage everything right, it's, it's a huge draw. Mm-hmm. . I see that even just like in the bigger world of education, you know, they're not gonna get their master's degree in teaching because they're just trying to get rich.
Like, it's a very heart-centered,~ um,~ giving back. It's usually a calling. It's more of a, a deeper life meaning kind of a thing. So maybe [01:05:00] trying to think of a way, if I was hearing you correctly, a way to help people that. Necessarily ask more, but the actually removes tension, as we say, brace using horsemanship words.
Mm-hmm. , remove, brace, remove tension, just like the going slow and half speed is a great example. It's like, it's actually easier, you know, it takes off pressure, it helps everybody slow down. You can do less, not do more, and actually get more to the core of that deeper meaning in the process, which is a really awesome gift, I think, especially for the givers and the healers and the teachers of the world to be able to try to find that and tap into that more.
Chrissy: Absolutely. And there, you know, there's no shame in, the way we're doing any of this because we're all, like you said, we're all in it for most of us for the right reasons. ~, um,~ and for as path instructors or path, uh, certified professionals, there are more people in our industry that are,~ um,~ uh, outside of, [01:06:00] in instructing as well, we are required to get continuing education credits in order to keep our certification.
So if we could use that time to,~ um,~ look into mindfulness practices and holistic horsemanship, I think that would be a great way to incorporate that. We have to get our hours in anyway. Right. ~Um, ~and I. Definitely believe you will see the benefits immediately as I did, I immediately incorporated all of this.
Like I go out and learn it, and then I'm able to, in the next day, influence or inputted into my lessons and my instruction immediately. So, because we all know how to breathe, we all know how to be present, sometimes we need some tips and tricks mm-hmm. . we all know how to be around horses.
~Um, ~and we know how to be safe around horses and all those good things too. So I think it's, it's not, like I said, it's not easy, but it's simple or simple. It's not easy. So acknowledging that, you know, everyone has all of, [01:07:00] all of these to-dos already, there shouldn't be another to-do. It should be a get to-do.
Yeah. .
Josh: Yeah. I love that, that that was one of the things that was one of the key,~ um,~ shifts that you brought to the group is that Yes. That saying that was one of many, but that was a good one. Yeah.
Chrissy: Yeah. And that I discovered that, phrase or that trick, when I was getting certified. So it is replacing, I have to do with, I get to.
and we, I didn't realize how much I said I have to like, have to go to the grocery store. I have to go to work, have to do this, have to make my lunch and take to work today because I'm gonna be there for a while. I have to have to have to, have to, have to, have to have to. And if you change that, it's just an awareness, just changing it and saying, I get to, yeah.
I get to go the grocery store today. I'm like, oh, there was some gratitude there that I get to go to the grocery store. Yeah. I have a grocery store just down the road for me. It has lots of healthy options. I can afford to go there and that, it [01:08:00] just, it just builds this,~ um,~ sense of gratitude. And it also kind of relaxes you a little bit.
I get to go to the grocery store. Mm-hmm. , I get to go to work. I get to go to work with horses. I get to have hard conversations at work that we'll all learn from a benefit from I get to, I get to, I get to, I get to. So that was a, a really cool reframe,~ um,~ that I still use today. I have a notepad says I get to my get to-do list.
I
Victoria: love that. That's very good. So Christy, have you, I feel like this is a good segue into this question. Have you figured out what your deepest intention is with horses?
Chrissy: That's such a good question. I don't. I have been able to put it into words yet. Mm-hmm. , that's fair. And I'm okay with that because that means I get to keep experiencing it and figure it [01:09:00] out.
~Um, ~I think the, the journey to figuring something out is as valuable as figuring it out. Oh, yeah. That's good. Didn't put that into words yet, because it's such a deep question and it interestingly, I thought that I probably could before I took this journey with all of you, and I'm like, Hmm, yep.
I don't think I know it. , I don't think I know it yet. That wasn't quite it. So still
Victoria: figuring it out. Mm-hmm. . When you say you think that that's even almost more valuable, that process. Yes. That's maybe pretty neat. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. .
Chrissy: Yeah. Very
Josh: good. Yeah. Yeah. That's beautiful. ~Um, ~I wonder, I'm just thinking, cause I know a bit more about your life than what we've shared in this podcast, and you've had a lot of range of experiences from growing up.
The, when you grew up to moving from Australia to Hawaii, you've had some extreme challenges and [01:10:00] overcome a lot of adversity. Do you think your life experiences with horses have helped you be? A better instructor and facilitator, or just to keep digging into the hard questions here.
Yeah. ,
Chrissy: absolutely. I mean, I horses don't lie. And I think horses have helped me learn about emotional integrity in a way that's healing. Like really being honest about and searching for what we're actually really feeling and what's really important to us. ~Um, ~horses have helped highlight that for me for sure.
~Um, ~realizing how, like, you know, I firmly believe that horses. Don't need to be hugged. They don't need to be kissed on the muzzle. They don't need to be fed treats every day. There are so many human things that we do. Humans are so weird, . ~Um, ~but horses give us, like, the more we learn about them, the more awareness we have about them and the more awareness we have about ourselves.
Like [01:11:00] what are, what are we really doing when we're saying what we're saying? What are we really doing in our relationships at home and at and at work? And are we being congruent? Are we being, you know, we say we want to live authentically and be authentic, but are we, and we're, we're requiring that of other people.
Are we also doing that for ourselves? ~Um, ~so yes, I think horses have, horses have taught me how to be a better human, how to human and how to adult, I think for sure. Mm-hmm.
Victoria: Was getting a little like itchy as you were talking about interest too. Yeah. It's, yeah. It's, mm-hmm. . It's work. It's the work. It's work if you wanna be around horses. Yep. It's work. It's really good work. I mean, we know that we know this, but we know this. But,~ ~
Josh: ~um,~ y
Embracing Failure and Seeking Mentorship
---
Josh: eah, I guess if we're, if we're feeling itchy, maybe we'll ask What's your biggest stuck point [01:12:00] when it comes to your personal personal work with horses?
Chrissy: Oh, goodness. I think it's the embodiment piece, which I was talking to my sister about the word embodiment the other day, and I said, what does it mean to you? She's like, oh, I don't know. Like, you just do the thing. . Like, yeah, I didn't really realize what that meant either, but I, uh, I remember something that Glen and Doyle said when she, she was talking about trauma and leaving the body and, you know, she's a writer and she's very cerebral and lots of thinking, and she said, you know, I found, I found all these books.
I found 20 books about embodiment and, you know, and her friend, you know, friend mentor said, yeah, reading some books should do it.
meaning like, yeah, if you stay from your, you know, from your chin up. , you're gonna think you're embodied, but you actually have to sink down and feel it in your body. So I remember we talked about embody embodiment in the course, [01:13:00] and I, I remember saying one day there was a, an embodiment piece. I think it went along with the equitation perhaps.
and I remember saying, so how do we do that ? How do I get embodied? And you gave me some good tips about, you know, the grounding meditation and feeling where your feet are rocking to the back of your feet, rocking forward to your toes, rocking to the inside of your feet, and then to the insides and slowly moving up your body.
And if you're doing that with intention and awareness, you can't help but be in your body. Like that's what it is. You're a feeling being you are present and you're in your body and then you look up and your horse is like, hey. I know who you are, I know exactly who you are, wanna do some fun things. So that,~ um,~ figuring that out, figuring out how to do that has been a struggle for me.
~Um, ~especially being, gosh, the imposter syndrome piece, because I work with a lot of people who have [01:14:00] a lot more horse experience than I do. Like grew up. Like you, Victoria, grew up just on horses. Like that's your, that's your experience. Like there's probably like every year of your life you can tie to something with horses because it is so much a part of your life.
if I'm doing something or trying something new at work and it doesn't work, ~, um,~ that can be a hard moment for me. I, you know, there's just a lot of ego involved there, obviously. But moving be able to like realizing that when I'm in that space and thinking, oh gosh, who's watching me do this? Or, oh God, well that didn't work.
That's not being present. Mm. So I have realized that all I need to do in that moment is just come back into my body and be present and then all of that goes away. So I feel like that's the one of the solutions I found are one of the tools that I have now to. To help with that. Not that I remember it all the time, , [01:15:00] but the horse is really great about saying nope.
Mm-hmm. try again. We don't have it yet. Hmm. Go back and reset. So, it's just cool .
Josh: I think we can safely file that in the simple but not easy category. Yeah. There's another
Victoria: one of those, and I'll just say for, for those of us who have been fortunate enough to grow up with horses like me, there's, you know, there's a lot of unlearning that has to happen too.
You know, that's been basically what the last , like five years have been
Chrissy: for me at least. Right. ,
Victoria: it's like, ~um, ~yeah. Yeah. So I mean, the horses meet you exactly where you're at.
Where you're at is always,~ um,~ a little farther than where the horse would like you to be when it comes to working with the horse. So, ~um, ~and that's where the beginner's mind and, just being curious and , working on getting clear about what you're [01:16:00] sensing, what you're feeling,~ um,~ it's just so helpful.
I took a few lessons at the Barbies last summer and, I mean, I got told just stop, stop doing so much . Like, it was just like, you, you know, too much like we're, you're not here to train our horses. So, I mean, it's, it's, yeah, it's, it was rough, but I, I totally get it. We're all on our own spots on the
Chrissy: journey.
Mm-hmm. . Yeah. And, and that's what I always tell people, like if your teacher, whatever field you're in, if your teacher, your coach, your mentor is, doesn't have their own. Right. And you need to find another one because you have to have that beginner's mindset. You have to humble yourself on a regular basis and fail and get back up.
I heard the term the other day that was failing forward. I'm like, yes, yes. Failing forward. Yes. Which is sounds very [01:17:00] hopeful. . We have to rely on other people who have been in the trenches who,~ um,~ can help us through and help us see what we're missing. I think that's really important to have, uh, quality mentorship.
Josh: I agree. I saw, I just read something the other day that I thought was really interesting talking about how information rich failure is, how mistakes, you know, we, we often say there's a lot of data in, in errors and mistakes. When something goes wrong, you can, there's a lot of data and you can learn from that.
However, uh, another argument actually against that is that when there's a mistake, when something happens, there's usually many factors involved. Maybe there's five. You know, we may only be aware of one or two of those. Mm-hmm. , so then we go and fix that. and we still fail, and then maybe over time we can start to figure out where those five things are.
But if you have a mentor mm-hmm. that can say, oh, these are the five things and you [01:18:00] can't work on number four until you work on number
Victoria: one. Because they themselves have worked through those at some point. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They've been on, on that part of the, the journey, that part of the trail.
Josh: Exactly.
Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Yeah. And I think if you can do that, and if you're open to it and are able to stay humble, curious, have a beginner's mind, you can literally turn decades to days in the mm-hmm. in the learning arc. And I think that's really cool too. Another part of mentorship that I really like is just that concept of standing on the shoulders of giants, that there're not only people who have put in much more time and hours, but there are generations and there are lineages that stretch back to the beginning of time, you know?
Ancient Wisdom in Horsemanship
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Josh: Yeah. So why not plug into that, you know? Yeah. Well,
Chrissy: especially in the horsemanship world. Like this is not new stuff.
Victoria: Exactly. None of it is, no, not new
Chrissy: meditation. Breathing's not new. Horsemanship is not [01:19:00] new.
Victoria: And the deeper we go, the deep, the farther back this stuff gets, I mean, you're start, that's where this, the golden thread concept and the kind of getting closer to the truth, it's like, oh, this is the stuff.
We learn from indigenous cultures and mm-hmm. , ~um, ~and this stuff goes way, way back. This is the stuff that people had figured out,~ um,~ you know, long before colonization.
The Role of Mentorship
---
Victoria: and I do think good mentors can help keep you out of the sort of shame spiral or the, even the imposter syndrome.
Yeah. Stuff like having a good mentor helps sort of perfectionism. Yeah. Keeps you, it's not about you. . Other people have felt the same way. You're not alone. What you're feeling is, part of the path, part of the journey, part of the process, keeps you out of that.
I can't do this because I'm so bad at it or whatever, you know, whatever the self-talk,~ um,~ is
Chrissy: Yeah. Those of us who like to be good at something immediately very much in that [01:20:00] category. Like, oh, it didn't work. Oh, that craft project didn't work. I'm not gonna do that again.
it just goes back to community and connection. The mentorship and the friendship and identifying people who have done all the same things before and they have more information than you do. Just more information than you do. Mm-hmm. . ~Um, ~and I, I love that Glennon calls her podcast. We can do hard.
And one day she was like, there's a reason. It's a, we, it's not, I, Glennon can do hard things cause I can't by myself. I have a huge team around me who helps me do all of these things that look fancy on the outside. It's not, I, it's we. So And even if it's a relationship of two, like the Horse and you, it's, we, you have a community there.
Mm-hmm. . ~Um, ~yeah. Yeah. C is so important.
Josh: Speaking of community and mentorship,~ um, ~we were recently in, community and mentorship experience and it went two ways. That's, you know, the beauty Yeah. Of that [01:21:00] too. Yeah. And I've heard even from great master teachers that they, they feel like they learn and grow through the art of teaching.
And it sounds like, oh yeah. One of the things that drives you, your core is that being a call to be a teacher, actually. Mm-hmm. .
Importance of Language in Equine Therapy
---
Josh: And something you, taught us and helped remind too is just the importance of language. . Mm-hmm. . And we talked the other day, we talked a little bit about that, really specific in terms of the adaptive writing community versus mm-hmm.
therapy writing community. And you even had a, a word for therapy I thought was really interesting. I was hoping maybe we could talk about that a little bit today too.
Chrissy: Sure.
So yes, there is,~ um,~ there is definitely a push to look at the terminology we use and make sure that we are using it in a way that does not mislead people coming to look for our services. So if we are seeing that we do therapy, we had better be actually doing therapy. So therapy [01:22:00] in the equine assisted services world is, could be something like equine assisted psychotherapy where a psychotherapist is utilizing the horse as a treatment modality and is actually providing treatment.
That's their client. They're providing treatment in that session or that lesson. It could be,~ um,~ occupational therapy or an occupational therapist is utilizing an equine to provide therapy,~ um,~ to their client. And that's the same for physical therapy. It's the same for speech, language, pathology.
Everything else comes under some other terms like equine assisted learning. Adaptive riding or therapeutic riding. there's a lot of people that call what I do therapy riding or riding therapy or horse therapy. ~Um, ~and I, I like to, invite people to think about it. Like if they're calling it equine therapy.
If we're talking about equine chiropractic, that's chiropractic work for the horse. Mm-hmm. , we're talking about equine massage. That's massage for [01:23:00] the horse. So we always wanna talk about, therapy in the sense of an actual licensed therapist, whatever their,~ um,~ specialty is. ~Um, ~you can only call it therapy if there's actual therapy happening.
Mm-hmm. and not, not even if they're a therapist and they're teaching writing, it's still not therapy, right. They have to ha it has to be an actual therapy session more they are pro,~ um,~ providing treatment to that client in the moment.
Adaptive Riding Explained
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Chrissy: so what I do, I'm a certified therapeutic riding instructor, so I, utilize my skillset to teach riding and horsemanship skills to people of all abilities.
That means I'm trained to adapt. the environment might be to adapt the arena, it might be to use lots of visuals and colors. It might be,~ um,~ you know, making markers that help people identify where they're asked to. Uh, it could be adapting tack, it could be using color blocked rains so people,~ um,~ can on their own look for the color that they're [01:24:00] supposed to be hold, which is an appropriate rain length for their horse.
it could be safety syrups. So, ~um, ~rider who have issues with wearing boots that are really tight for them,~ um,~ we can use safety stirs that make,~ um,~ make that a lot safer for them to ride without a boot, with a heel and a smooth soul. So there are lots of ways that we can adapt our environment.
And so that's adaptive riding. ~Um, ~our therapeutic riding. And you can think about that like, you know, there's adaptive skiing and adaptive surfing and adaptive bike riding and all those,~ um,~ things that, that you take a typical experience and then you, depending on what that person needs, you adapt it in a way that's,~ um,~ safe and effective and beneficial.
So yes, terminology is important. We all know that words matter. we need to make sure that the people receiving services are very clear about the service that they're receiving. if a parent thinks that they're coming to receive therapy and that's the, the language that you use, ~ um,~ that's not good.
They need to be clear [01:25:00] that,~ um,~ of what you're qualified to. .
Josh: That's interesting. how you delineated equine therapy in relation to like equine massage or equine choire prac. I never thought about that before. I know I myself have kind of not knowing this said equine therapy.
Like, oh, our friend Laura does equine therapy, but mm-hmm. even just dealing in that it would be equine assisted psychotherapy would be a much more specific way of explaining that then not only not, you know, I mean words matter so much. We talk a lot about that even in the respect to the embodiment part about how to understand horses is the paradox, right?
To understand horses, we have to learn how to use our language to understand and embody information so that we can then learn how to communicate non-verbally , do horses. It's a really fascinating thing.
Chrissy: There are some people in, in the industry who do provide therapy and call it equine therapy.
that's not something we do with path. we have,~ um,~ specific clear language that we use for our programming and, Like if you go to a Path Center's website [01:26:00] or a center that has PATH instructors, you will likely see that they're using all the same,~ um,~ terminology. They might have lots of different types of programming.
but kind of all under that same umbrella, so mm-hmm. as an umbrella term. We use equine assisted services to encompass all of those things. And then we're very specific about the program, uh, the language we use to describe the programs,~ um,~ and the staff that we have available.
Josh: that makes sense.
And in path for a lot of people that don't know, that's, that's a very large, it's in the name, it's international. I don't know how many people and centers are, are certified through there, but it's the gold standard, I would say. Right? That's fair to say. It's, yeah,
Chrissy: definitely one of the largest leading organizations.
~Um, ~yes. Training and certifying instructors, accrediting centers to make sure that they're meeting,~ um,~ lots of standards that are safety standards, facility standards,~ um,~ standards for training,~ um,~ t and equipment standards, all kinds of things. And there are other organizations too, big ones and small ones that are,~ um,~ doing really impactful, [01:27:00] also work in the community.
And some of those also have taken on this optimal terminology,~ um,~ information as. . Hmm. And then there are some that, like you said, there are therapists out there still using equine therapy as a term to describe their work. just as long as we're very clear about what we're offering and what our credentials are and what we're licensed to do.
Josh: That's the other side too. The language is, it just gives the proper respect due to Yeah. The, the certifications. like I'm a certified massage therapist, but if I say I'm doing physical therapy for horses, that would be misusing a title there.
If I said I was doing chiropractic for horses, that'd be a, a huge misrepresentation. So mm-hmm. . So it does really matter in equine therapy, generally speaking, I think if we're not up on the optimal terminology, and if we're not in the industry, we would think that's maybe a counselor doing therapy mm-hmm.
with a person and a horse. So yeah, just being really specific about the language, I think is really interesting. it also shows all the things that are possible. You know, it's not just Coin Therapy Theater, you just listed [01:28:00] off like six different things, and I know there's probably more, you know,
Chrissy: yeah.
There's interactive vaulting, there's ground driving, all those kinds of things. It's,~ um,~ . Yeah. Yeah. I think some people, so.
Community and Inclusivity
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Chrissy: They hear,~ um,~ language or talking about language that we can do better or terminology standards. And it feels exclusive, but like you're saying, it helps you learn about all the things that are possible.
I think it's a really inclusive approach. Mm-hmm. , ~um, ~to terminology, if we get it right, we can, uh, educate and inform people and, and ultimately, people will learn that there is something out there that they can do with horses that's either therapy or something adaptive that can bring joy and healing to them.
So, if people there have been, for an example, there's one parent that came to us and, and she said, you know, I don't, the kid wants to ride horses. I don't really think it's right for her though. She doesn't need people to walk alongside her and I really don't know if this is a program.
And I [01:29:00] said, well, awesome. We have lots of independent rider, so, you know, come on in and we can do a test ride and see how it goes. and she was thrilled that her daughter could feel accomplished and confident and,~ um,~ all she needed was a little extra emotional support and someone who could guide her through that.
then she was able to move on to a different program when she moved. ~Um, ~that was a more typical writing experience where she no longer. Needed those supports. So yes, her daughter could definitely benefit from adaptive writing programming. So it's an opportunity for us to,~ um,~ help educate the public as well, which is important.
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Josh: Victoria and I have had conversations about the adaptive principle cuz she's in the Master's of Social Work program. And rather than that being like a special program, like what if just the whole world was adaptive, you know? Mm-hmm. , there was just something for everybody and everything.
Victoria: Like options, like the word you used earlier, you know, just another option. what we find, especially when we're talking about these adaptations that are put into place for different learning styles or NeuroD diversities mm-hmm. , they actually are, would benefit most of us. Like they're the things that my son who [01:31:00] is, on the spectrum for autism, gets help with, to process information with his schoolwork Absolutely.
Would help his two older brothers mm-hmm. , but because they don't have this diagnosis mm-hmm. , those things aren't accessible to them. I think about it all the time. It's just like, I think the world just needs to be more adaptive. Like that's a word that we all could use. Like we all need some of this.
putting it on the, this population that, that already has a lot on their plate. Like, okay, now you mm-hmm. your cares, you're getting your special stuff, it's mm-hmm. , it just doesn't feel right all the time. Yeah. And we are, moving away from the term special needs mm-hmm. and using,~ um,~ you know, diverse needs or people of all abilities or just people, right.
Chrissy: This, including everybody. I remember going to a presentation, a virtual presentation, [01:32:00] like mid 2020 when we're all just not even knowing what was gonna happen with the world. And she said, you could assume that everyone's just walking around all traumatized. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And then that, that creates this, okay.
Well, we're, I can assume that that person's reaction might mean that they have something going on that, I don't know, I may never know, but I'm gonna approach them with a little more kindness today. Mm-hmm. . And so that's, that's really all we need to do. Just knowing that everyone has things that we will never know.
Everyone has some level of trauma, some more than. and all we need to do is be present and kind. Yeah, one question that said, use one word to describe the horse person. You, sorry, to me, my two words were present and kind. I could couldn't pick one. Nice. That's just what, that's just what we need to be, be present with people.
Listen to them when they're talking. Notice them [01:33:00] and approach everything with kindness, which I'm not always good at doing all those things though, you know, .
Victoria: But those are intentional things. Those are things that you have to, that we have to practice those. Yeah. Those are aspirational
Chrissy: Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Victoria: I was at a trauma informed training the other day, and just when you said that about we all need to assume that we're all walking around with trauma. The facilitators said, we all just need to have t-shirts that like say what our trauma is and the behaviors that manifest on one side, what our traumas are, and on the other side, and then we'd all be a lot kinder and more present with each
Chrissy: other. Standing. Yeah. Yeah. It's so true. Yeah, there was, I was in a training the other day with,~ um,~ one of the largest centers in the country, super awesome. And they do trainings for other centers, which is cool. And they have this [01:34:00] How to Work With Me document, so all their staff fills it out.
And it has, you know, how I like to receive feedback, how I like to give feedback, what's important to me, and all these questions. So it was a document, everybody reads everyone's documents if they're working with them, and if there's any kind of conflict or Wow, what does that about, does that person matter?
You go back and you look at it. Hmm. If there's something in there that you could do better to support that person, then you do it. If there's, it's usually all explained in this document, which is basically like the t-shirt that says, this is how you can work with me, . Like, this is, this is messed up and this is how I communicate and how I receive communication.
This is how we can all get along, which was, it was a fascinating exercise to look at. So I'm excited to, jump into that a little more and see how we can apply it too. .
Victoria: Yeah, I like that. I'm gonna, I'm gonna be thinking about [01:35:00] that. That's good stuff.
Josh: we just have a few more questions before we start to land our plane here.
~Um, ~
Personal Reflections and Future Goals
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Josh: I'm wondering though, like, what's, what's next for you in your journey? What's on the horizon And how could people get in touch with you or follow your process or get to know more about the program you work for? just all that. Yeah. Good stuff. Awesome.
Chrissy: Thank you for asking . Mm-hmm. . So, uh, you can find our [email protected].
H a k u B a l D w I N center.org.
Josh: Ok. I'll put all that in the liner notes
Chrissy: too. ? . So that's our center of the, those are our programs. ~Um, ~you can also, reach me on my email if you have any questions about,~ um,~ becoming a path instructor or any path programs as a region ambassador.
That's my job to answer those kinds of a region ambassador. We have many, it's my job to answer those questions. You can reach [email protected]. And then I also have a [01:36:00] company that, develops teaching aids and visual aids. , instructors to help instructors excel to,~ um,~ aid in that kind of communication to create supports for, students.
Teaching aids for eass.com, EASs, meaning equine Assistant services. and you can always use that email if you wanna reach out to me and chrissy.gmail.com. as far as what's next,~ um,~ every year I try to set bigger off dear goals for myself, like shiny ones with flashing lights, , and then I am always blown away by, you know, having that kind of mindset, all of the other things that kind of come to me as far as opportunities.
~Um, ~so I'm not sure what's next, but I'm open-minded and I keep, you know, putting myself out there in ways that I think might be helpful for people. I love mentoring other instructors, so definitely get in touch with, you're curious about either becoming instructor or receiving services. There are centers all across the country and around the world,~ um,~ even if it's not path or other [01:37:00] organizations that are awesome too.
My mom and my sister,~ um,~ volunteer at the R D a, which is a Writing for Disabled Association in Australia. And. My other sister,~ um,~ worked there when she was in high school, I believe. So lots of awesome people all around the world, pairing people and horses together for, awesomeness,
Josh: magical awesomeness, okay, Chrissy, thanks for all that. I'll put those, all those sites down the liner notes too, if anybody wants to, to dive into that some more. How about this one? The, the three things question. This is one of our favorite questions to ask.
So no pressure though. . If you had to sum up the most important or most meaningful ideas about horses and people to only three things, what would they be? Hmm.
Chrissy: ~Um, ~we need community. Mm. Of horses and humans, and we should seek it out. If we don't have it, it's there. It's [01:38:00] all community is just there. ~Um, ~so find it if you don't have it.
~Um, ~horse, I think I've kind of said before, like horses don't lie. . ~Um, ~they have immediate honest feedback and we can learn so much from them. ~Um, ~and I think approaching everything with the mindset of I get to is super important. Mm-hmm. , I get to be with my horse. I get to learn more, I get to be humbled.
I'm like horse. So on a regular basis I get to, so forward thinking, growth mindset is, important for humans and horses for sure.
Victoria: I hear belonging, gratitude. Mm-hmm. , mindfulness, just all the stuff we've been talking about today.
Chrissy: All of those, all of the above. .
Josh: Okay. And then what about when it comes to horses? Someone or something that you feel gratitude for?
Gratitude and Final Thoughts
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Chrissy: horses, , and how they, tolerate all the things we wanna do to them.
I mean, we heard them, we heard them onto [01:39:00] properties, and we put fences around them. Mm-hmm. . And then we asked them to come do things with us that we think are fun. So , very grateful for horses and how much they are willing to do and forgive and be with us. Very grateful for that. Uh, also grateful for,~ um,~ mentors and friends.
And friends who are mentors and mentors who are friends, for, like lighting the way sometimes and shining, shining the light on the path and saying, uh, yeah, you can go forward , and you should, and you already have everything you need. Hmm. Go forth and do things. and I feel that that's part of why I want to mentor.
Cause I want to give that back to people and help move people forward where they want to go. Empowering writers and participants in lessons sessions. Like, yes, you can do this. You can do this, you can ask a thousand pound animal to [01:40:00] come towards you without talking or pulling or forcing. if you can do that, you can do anything.
Yeah.
Victoria: Wow.
Josh: very cool. Yeah. I love that, Chrissy. and that you already said this, but just to, just to round it out again, one word or two to describe the kind of horse person you aspire to be.
Chrissy: I think Yeah. Present and kind. can get you a lot of places with horses. There was one quote, I think it may have been on, you've been on one of your Instagram posts or something that says if you work on a horse, getting that horse better, that horse gets better.
If you work on yourself, all of the horses get better. Oh yeah. Work with,~ um,~ so, and you can do that through being present and being kind to the horse and to yourself. Yeah.
Victoria: Yeah. There's that mirroring process too. Right.
Chrissy: that's all you need. We already know, we already all know how to do [01:41:00] this. We might just need some help.
Uh, remembering.
Victoria: I love that. I remember early on in the journey process you said, , wait a minute, I know how to be with horses. Like I can do this. I know what I'm doing here. And that, that was so powerful when you said that.
I was just like, that is what we all need to meditate on before we go to the barn. We are fully already where we need to be. ~Um, ~or I mean, we have what we need. I guess it's just a matter of trusting that, letting that lead us. ~Um, ~that's so
Chrissy: cool. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. I remember that moment, , those weeks, having struggles with horses cuz I was trying too hard and I was thinking too much and I was just all up in my head and I, you know, was trying to get okay with saying, I don't know, I don't know what to do.
I don't know, like accepting all answers like I do for participants. [01:42:00] I'm gonna accept all answers for. and what came to me was, okay, so I already know how to be like, to be a human. I know how to breathe. I know how to be safe around horses and myself, and I know how to be present. I know how to notice. I think it's noticing more.
I know how to notice. I know how to notice what's happening with me, what's happening in the environment, what's happening with, already know how to do all that. And if I just keep doing that, then I'm gonna figure it out.
Victoria: Yes. Nice. And that's applicable in life.
I mean, that's what's so beautiful about the horse stuff is like, oh, let's see. That's how I should maybe approach all the relationships that I'm involved in right now. That's how I should all of the
Chrissy: endeavors. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. . Then there's like all of that to explore how you can apply all the things you learn about yourself and [01:43:00] horses to, the rest of life.
Yeah. Great point. And activity for the future. Next podcast. . Yeah. Pick up next time. And my life's, you know, mission and, and how do we be better humans? How let's,
Victoria: yeah.
Josh: Nice. Small talk .
Victoria: Yeah, I know. Just little stuff. Just little stuff. Just
Josh: little things. Little
Chrissy: things. Little tiny concepts.
Josh: did you have a chance to think about your mini playlist for
Victoria: stall cleaning? ,
Josh: five songs. You train calls too?
Chrissy: Well, there would definitely be some Eddie Better in there. I love that Eddie. Better. I, but honestly, if I'm at the barn, I try not to have headphones on, but if I do, it's usually a podcast.
to try and learn how to be a human ~, um,~ or some kind of like meditation, one of Josh's meditations [01:44:00] or some kind of walking meditation. ~Um, ~and then in the class we had an awesome Spotify list that everyone contributed to, which was so cool. So, you know, learning and hearing new music is awesome, but I never, I, I always struggled with that.
What's your favorite song? What's your favorite movie? What's your favorite food? I'm like, I don't know. Can someone tell me what those things are? Because I, I like all of the things and sometimes none of the things, or one thing or 10 things or . So yeah, usually a podcast lately, meditation. Nice. important that is , uh, or some music that I've heard that other people are interested too, and I'm just like, let's check that out.
Victoria: , I think you kind of answered this, but what do you think. Those choices, which is you just keep, like, to keep your options open except for Eddie Better, which I am with you on that.
~Um, ~what do you think that says about you and your horse [01:45:00] journey? Like, if you could sort of bring that into, you know, notes about Chrissy.
Chrissy: I think that I am just at a place where I'm okay not knowing the answer. Ooh. And I, right. Which I, you know, this is a hard journey to get there,~ um,~ , but I, and I don't want to, I work really hard at not putting other people in boxes and labeling people.
So I'm trying to give that gift to myself. ~Um, ~and not, I, I found that the more or the less we limit ourselves and how we think about ourselves and what we like and what we don't like,~ um,~ the more opportunity there is there. So I feel like it's just opportunity, like you're saying Josh before, like you liked that word opportunity when working with horses and missed opportunities and looking for more opportunities.
I think that's it. That's the key. And is an opportunist, is that what I'm ? Yes. We
Victoria: talked about this before too. [01:46:00] You're, you're a chronic learner.
Chrissy: Yeah. Chronic. Yes. Mm-hmm. , I get way more continuing education than one would ever need. Yeah. I can't, I'm just an insatiable learner and still that kid sitting in the shade reading all the books.
Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Can't stop. Won't stop . Mm-hmm. don't stop.
Victoria: Mm-hmm.
Chrissy: I don't read a lot of books anymore other than like technical stuff for work. ~Um, ~I, it's just like all podcasts and audio books and I always say like, audio books count as reading because otherwise you're being ableist because some people don't process through reading, they process through hearing.
So
Victoria: a hundred percent. I find that I do better when I listen to the audio book and then go back and read like, that's what I need. . It's just, . I have a hard time with retention and we're not doing, so Yeah. That's part of the journey is like figuring out what works for you and, unfortunately the culture that we live in kind of tends to say there's this way to do it and don't [01:47:00] often, we're like adults before we even realize that there's like other ways of doing anything.
~Um, ~we've even like seen it or heard the language or whatever, which is kind of everything we've been talking about today.
Chrissy: Josh is trying so hard to wrap this up and then we're just like, well keep talking. Oh, no, no. That's good,
I know. We love it. Yeah, we're terrible. We're just gonna keep talking. . There's a lot. So it's awesome. I have loved it so much. This is such a cool conversation. I always enjoy talking with both of you. I always get so much out of it. ~Um, ~and then just appreciate it so much. Yeah, same. Same.
Josh: Yeah. Likewise.
Likewise. And thank you for all the work you do, connecting humans and horses, being an advocate for the horse, always learning and growing yourself so that you can be of service to others. Mm-hmm. and be of service to horses. I think if there are more people like you in the world, the world will be a better place.
Yes. So we appreciate you and anything we can keep doing to support [01:48:00] you, we're gonna keep looking for, and we're gonna keep learning from you too. Yeah. Moving forward. So,
Victoria: yeah. You're an inspiration. You're a light.
Josh: So we're grateful, we're grateful to have met you and have had a chance to do this podcast with you two to share Chrissy with the rest of the world.
Mm-hmm. . .
Chrissy: Mm-hmm. , record our awesome conversations. Cause we've had many . Yeah. This is just the first inviting everyone in.
Victoria: Yeah. . Yeah, exactly. And
Chrissy: this is just, sorry Josh. You can, you can keep wrapping it up. Sorry, ,
Josh: this is just the first part. Or or maybe two parts. So this might be the end of part two. We'll see how that that goes.
But I did, this is good. This is the first series, I'll say. And , we'll think of a next series to come back to. So, all right. Thank you Chrissy. For Yeah, for Thank you. Coming on and doing this. And we look forward to the next time
Outro and Community Invitation
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