Barb Podcast
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Breaking Free from Trauma Stories
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barb: [00:00:00] our stories get so in the way. one of the things that was most an impediment with my growth with Blaze was me continuing to tell his trauma story.
Blaze doesn't repeat his trauma story. He doesn't even know that he's got one. And I would tell it, and I could use it as excuses and I found myself telling it all the time. And that was my description of him, right. And he's so much bigger and more than that.
And it was so limiting, this is a magnificent. Talented athletic horse so I had to get outta my own way, ah and let go of the story,
but I think we do that as parents too. I've done workshops with parents, what is your story? And I've used my narrative with Blaze to help them understand how much of a burden that can be for the children and how many barriers that can put up. And even though you've gotta go out and advocate like crazy with a kid with a challenge and you've gotta be there for them and it's imperative and they can't do the that for themselves.
Initially. Stepping back from that and allowing that is one of the most difficult and challenging and greatest [00:01:00] gifts the parent can give their child. Or our horses. Mm-hmm.
Welcome to The Herd is Calling Podcast
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Welcome to the herd is calling podcast. This is where we break free from conventional norms to explore the art, science, and wonder of the horse human connection. I'm Josh Williams. And together with my wife, Victoria, we're your hosts. Our mission is to inspire. you to improve the lives of horses.
Subscribe to The Herd is calling on Substack for behind the scenes stories and unique content. Now let's get to the episode.
Josh: Welcome to the Herd is Calling podcast.
Introducing Barb Cast
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Josh: Today we have a very special guest. We have Barb Cast here in the studio with us. I'm gonna introduce Barb and then we'll get to asking her some questions. Okay. Barb was born and raised in Connecticut and has been on the West coast for the past 45 years. Her career [00:02:00] has been about working with families.
She co-founded a therapeutic boarding school in 1984 and moved into parent coaching in 2004 when that school closed. Her focus has been on supporting parents to develop more effective parenting through improved communication, self-exploration, and understanding their role in the relationship. Her current goals are focused on my horse journey.
And how she can be the best horse person she can be. Yes. Welcome Barb. Thank you. I'm so glad to be here. Great. And it's a privilege to have you here. Thank you. I've known Barb for a couple years now. Yeah. And Victoria started working with Barb a little before that with some lessons. And when we first got the idea to do my horse journey, it was more of an immersive experience.
We went and visited Barb to float the idea by her and see what she thought. And we were [00:03:00] actually. Not totally sure about it. We're a little insecure cause it was new. It was different. And Barb was super supportive. She was all in from the beginning. Mm-hmm. And she's been here nonstop ever since. So I feel like we've sort of co-founded some of our frameworks together, cuz you've been really inspirational and influential for all of our stuff.
you're the star of one of our testimonial videos. You're horse blaze. I just smile every time I see his face. Yeah. And I just really appreciate you, appreciate your wisdom, appreciate your experience, appreciate you supporting and mentoring us, and I appreciate you being here to, to share your story with everybody else too.
Yeah. I've loved every step of it. Great. Yeah. Great.
Barb's Journey with Blaze
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Josh: Maybe we could get started by just zeroing in a little bit on your life today. Tell us about your horse, what a day in the life looks like and your horse life these days.
barb: In my horse life, well, I've been fortunate. To retire mostly, which has [00:04:00] been really delightful.
Mm. ~Uh, ~and wondering, a couple years ago when I was thinking about retiring and what I would do, I thought I'll spend time with Blaze, but I had absolutely no idea it was gonna open up to the opportunities that it has. And it was so serendipitous and great manifesting and all of that to meet you both and to be able to step into this journey with you.
And it is, as I think I said in one of the clinics, I feel like everything I've done in my life has brought me to this point, which is probably one of the most enjoyable and what I feel really productive and. Growth steps. I just love it. Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. It's been fabulous.
Josh: Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. So you're out at Ghost Rock Ranch.
Cher's on one of our podcasts too. Who, yeah. Who owns and manages Ghost Rock. beautiful place. Your horse Blaze. My horse Blaze. Wonder, should we talk about Blaze a little bit? Yeah.
Victoria: Tell us about Blaze. Blaze.
barb: Oh, [00:05:00] blaze. Blaze is,~ uh,~ I have to be careful so I don't say he's my number one favorite son.
Cause my son call gets a little bit burned by that. Blaze is phenomenal. He has been a treasure, he's a gift. He came into my life about 10 years ago when I was volunteering at, at Wine Outreach. Mm-hmm. He came in and, for whatever reason with all the horses I'd been handling, I really wasn't working or training them or anything, but just dealing with.
He just spoke to me and it was love at first sight. And we have spent all of those 10 years developing our relationship and getting him to a point where he is today, which is I think spectacular,~ uh,~ given where we started. Mm-hmm. I mean, he was a rescue kid from an abusive situation and he's just stepped into this whole process and he loves it.
~Uh, ~and he's trying. Yeah, he's
Josh: by joy. Yeah. He's a beautiful horse. Yeah. Big personality. [00:06:00] Yeah.
Blaze's Rescue and Rehabilitation
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Josh: It's, I know it's not real pleasant to think about, but could you mind sharing just the situation that he was rescued from just for perspective? Yeah.
barb: As far as I know, and again, you know, part of this is what I've heard and, and,~ uh,~ sort of developed, but he came from Pineville.
And when. They got a call from the people that had him. They literally said, if you're not here by five o'clock, we're gonna shoot him. Hmm. They couldn't catch him. He was in a pretty crappy situation in terms of his pen. And in fact when he came in he was up to, above his elbows, I guess, just all water soggy and a mess.
He wasn't under nourish necessarily, but just unkempt and terrified of being caught. And I guess it took quite a while to catch him and, and load him. And he came in and he was in a round pen, cuz that was the only space they had for him at the time. And they, they needed him separated and he just shook.
He, he just stood and shook for days. He just, and when I saw him for whatever [00:07:00] reason, he came up and greeted me and the rest is history. Hmm. And I, I spent probably. I'm trying to think, maybe two years still out there not doing anything with him. I could halter, I was the only one that could halter and catch him.
He had a really bad accident with a hot wire catching him in his highing leg when he was galloping with a bunch of horses out in the field and cut him almost to the bone and he couldn't treat it. I mean, that's how terrified he was all the time. And I was able to groom him and start touching him all over, but didn't have a clue how to work with him.
So in hindsight and without any, it's just what I could do. At the time, I just loved on him and was with him, but I didn't do anything to really work with him. One person did a little bit but not a lot. He had been ridden, so he was able to be tacked up, but he was just frozen inside. He was just, just [00:08:00] gone.
He was so disassociated with himself. He would perform, but. He was frightened all the time, and I moved from equine outreach over to Western Sky Ranch, which is now Mustangs to the rescue. Oh, this is it. And found a train at Teresa Bickle. Her husband did Blas feet when I was able to get a, a male ferrier and I worked with a female Ferrier for years, just so he would be afraid.
And Theresa was fabulous. She's, I think from Montana, I don't know. And she just came in and she did a lot of Pelli work. Mm-hmm. And she was like, you gotta, you gotta step this up. You just keep traumatizing your horse with your own limitations and fears. And I thought, I know that to be true. I know that from my work with kids.
So she did a lot of preliminary work and I was told,~ uh,~ by another trainer who I really respect that. We were doing great work, but I would never ride him that he was too traumatized to [00:09:00] be ridden. But this was great for him anyway, just to be handled. Hmm. And I just kept taking it forward and taking it forward and thinking we'll find the next trainer when Teresa left and got to ride him.
And yeah. And then when we moved to Ghost Rock just kept working and doing that. And then the best work has been obviously is the work world to me, the work we've done together with him, cuz he's got so much potential and I'm trying to catch up with it. Right. Yeah. All the time. Trying to catch up with you.
Victoria: That's, that's what we're all doing. That's what we're all doing. Yeah.
barb: It's just a joy.
Victoria: Yeah. I wanna come back to, well I actually, I am just curious, what do you think? Initially when he wouldn't let anybody else put a halter on him. Mm-hmm. And what do you think that was between you and him, you and Blaze, that he said, I think I could let this person in just a little bit.
barb: God, that's a good question. I didn't have an [00:10:00] agenda with him. I had no expectations. Hmm. Um
Victoria: hmm. Mm-hmm. I mean, yeah. Right there. Yeah.
barb: Yeah. It's just like a heart to heart. It's personal. It is emotional. Yeah. I always get emotional when to think about it. And I, it's, I said this, and it sometimes sounds trite, but I was committed. No, it was for him. Mm-hmm. Again. Mm, wow. Yeah. Yeah. It's very clear.
And I think all of my work with kids and their wo deep, deep, deep, deep wounds. And that's where I think those parallels, which I really never understood before, but the parallels between working with a horse, especially with, with deep wounds it, it, it was, it's kind of a no-brainer. Mm-hmm. And it keeps continuing that theme of how you work and build relationships with peers and how you do it with your horses.
So apparent to me. Mm-hmm. Right. [00:11:00] And you lose sight of, its, I lose sight of it sometimes and some of the tools and skills, but yeah, I just, just saw beyond that, I guess. Yeah. Yeah.
Victoria: ~Uh, ~well, what I hear too is just you had a very clear intention. Yeah. That was just like the, it was just, yeah. Yeah. It was like a heart-centered, again, not to use all these kind of words that get overused, but it just, and that's what resonated between you.
And That's
barb: true. I hadn't thought about it in terms of that, but you're exactly right. I didn't, you said, yeah. My intention, I didn't know how I was gonna get there, but I was going to, I was gonna do that. Nobody was ever
Victoria: gonna hurt. That was your intention. Yeah. Wow. Mm-hmm. And he went,
barb: I'm with you. Yeah. He said, oh, that's good.
That's good. That's good.
Victoria: But they do, they, they feel that that's the language that we're trying to get to all the time.
barb: So, yeah. And I think at that point I look back and I think, I wish I had more knowledge, or I wish I had more skills, but I think it worked in my favor. Yeah. Because I had [00:12:00] nothing but patience.
I didn't go, I mean, it was fine to just go out and spend. I love spending time with him, just hanging with him. I'm taking 'em for walks and I didn't have the knowledge or the, the,~ uh,~ The foresight to see that I could be doing other things with him. So it gave us really long time to just mm-hmm. Build a bond.
Josh: Yeah. I think that's awesome. I, I, I hope people hear that and really take stock too. Cause those are two of the fundamental principles of connecting and communicating with horses. One is having a solid foundation and tension. It's not like I would like to, it's more of like, I must, and you just know, you know, even though you may not know the steps on how to get there, you know where you're going.
Right. And then the other is beginner's mind, which even if you have experience, we try to cultivate that. And you had that naturally. So you had these two just really powerful things without knowing, without trying. It was just already there. Yeah. And then of course, all of your background [00:13:00] working with relationship trauma, healing, connection through your work with families and children.
It's a coil connection where everything lined up. So looking back it's just like this perfect puzzle where everything actually was fitting together, but you were just in the moment experiencing it. It's really beautiful.
barb: Thank you. And in hindsight, and I've never framed it the way you just put it, it was just lovely to hear.
I've never thought about it like that. But it is true. It's nice to, to actually in retrospect look at it and think what the advantages
Josh: were. I think so many people, and I can relate to this myself, like you just think, oh, I can't really enjoy this until I know more. Or I can't really identify as maybe a horse person until I've.
Gotten to a certain level until I can lope easily and I know all the terminology and I can walk in a tack room and know what everything is and where it goes. But really mm-hmm. That's not necessarily, that's nice when you can get all of that. It's part of the journey, acquiring skill and knowledge, but just having that, the heart, the beginner's mind, the intention, [00:14:00] that's really where the, the marrow of it all is.
So I think your story really illustrates that. The fact that he wouldn't trust or connect or even let anybody else associate with him. But you came with those qualities within you and, and who did he trust? So, yeah. Beautiful.
Victoria: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Some of that stuff gets in the way. I mean, it's gotten in my way so many times.
I've found that cuz I am like, the horse needs to do this and the horse needs to do this. Mm-hmm. And then we can't do that till the horse does this. And often I have to strip down. Keep dripping down. Yep. Let you know Let's get, get deeper. Get deeper, yeah. Mm-hmm. It's
barb: true. Each time I had to do anything with him, whether it was, as I said, he wouldn't let anybody treat that wound.
There was an initial treatment of it. They had to Sure. That was the end of it. Mm-hmm. And I had to figure out what I was gonna do to keep this horse healthy and I had no idea. So I played with a hose every day with him for probably four or five months until healed. I [00:15:00] didn't know. I knew he wasn't gonna let a man near him cuz that's who traumatized him.
So I had to find somebody that was willing to work really slowly, just picking up his feet before he could have his feature. So every step of that, I had no clue what I was stepping into, but we had to figure it out as we went along. And it was always with what was best for him. Always, what was best for him.
How was I gonna get him through this?
Victoria: And he sensed it. Yeah. He knew it. Yeah. He was like, yep. Yeah, let's do it. It's real.
Josh: we talked about, intention in beginner's minds, thought of the first two values in our manifesto that we all co-created as a community. ~Uh, ~love.
So you had the heart of love and then you had the curiosity, like you knew you must do this. Yeah. It's not a question. So then you were just curious, I'm gonna play around with the hose, I'm gonna figure this out. And and you knew if it took one week or five months, you were gonna get there. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
barb: It was just literally, it was day by day. Mm-hmm. It was minute by minute with him, [00:16:00] always. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Josh: Yeah. Great. Before we move on too, I just wanted to see like what, when you first decided to volunteer at this place, like what, where'd that come from? Why did you choose that?
And did you plan on trying to have your own horse to take care
barb: of? No, When I was in California, we were on 10 acres. I had a couple of horses. One of 'em was very old. And my younger one, I sold to somebody that was way more qualified to work with this little Arab than I was. So she got a good home and I brought sugar up and boarded her at Western Sky.
Okay. Joan Steel Hammerer sold us our house and she was just setting up FYN Outreach at the time and it wasn't even established. And I had, the whole time we were looking at houses, I was talking to her about the rescue, I said, I wanna volunteer there. And that was probably one of the first volunteers.
I just went out and mucked for months, just clean stalls and whatever. And I was there for, I can't remember how many years and just decided it was probably time to, change and figure something else out. And that's when we moved over to Western Sky. But. Joan [00:17:00] was really dedicated and absolutely committed to horse rescue.
And they had just done the Milin Rescue, which was about 130 horse rescue. Wow. Was a collaborative effort, devastating in many respects. And she was very instrumental in following through with that and did terrific work and a lot of the horses that were out at the rescue were from the Millan Rescue, or a number of 'em, I should say.
Hmm. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So I, I just felt really fortunate that I had a place to, and it, you know, a whole new area to go and be with horses.
Josh: Hmm. Yeah, I was thinking when you talked about catching Blaze, like whoever was helping there must have had some skill, cuz that sounds like really challenging.
Yeah.
barb: And John was really good at that. She was really patient. She was yeah. There was so many, there were so many really good things that happened with that.
Barb's Early Connection with Horses
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Victoria: So, what, how were you first drawn to horses? Why were you first drawn to what, take us back, We'll, we'll kind of go back and then we'll come forward again, but where did it all begin for you,
barb: you know, I pondered this cuz you've, we've, I've thought [00:18:00] about it and thought of this. I know I've said, and most of the people involved with this say they never did love horses.
Mm-hmm. It feels, it feels it feels so old and ancient to me. Mm-hmm. I don't think I had a choice. I think it came with me. And
everything. I was talking with Jim when we were driving the other day, that, but even when I see a. A horse out in the pasture. I have to be careful. I don't drive off the road between the different, well, I can tell you every horse I saw, I couldn't tell you which cars I see or whatever.
It's just been a part of me. I have, I have always loved them. I think. One of the things that you said, and maybe one of our clinics was that you feel seen by them. Mm-hmm. And there's something that really does feel ancient. The connection. It just feels home.
Mm-hmm. And it's never not felt like that. And I did not have a lot of exposure to horses when I was a kid. I mean, I was thinking on the way out here, my parents did the best they could. And you know, when we first talked, I said [00:19:00] that I'd had lessons periodically, but they were little clumps of lessons.
And I've realized recently how. In many ways unfortunate it is that some of the barns, I did ever feel a part of the barns that I went to. I didn't feel like I had the, the longevity with the situation. I didn't feel like I had a, a team. I just felt like I went and they kind of put you on a horse and the road and it was like, I love that, but I quested for way more than that.
And that was always missing in my childhood. Hmm. Yeah. I mean, and yeah, and I didn't have that until my mid forties when I decided to get a horse. I was just like, I don't know anything about, I'm gonna get a horse. And they do.
Josh: And that was in California? That was in California at that point?
barb: Yeah. And we had the school at the time and we were on 260 acres and some of it was fenced and I had a little shed for it and went and basically rescued a horse that had been left to somebody when his wife left him.
And he didn't know what to do and she was. Really [00:20:00] pretty little way, way undernourished Arab that once she got nourished was way more worse than I could. Totally. Mm-hmm. But that's how I got started. Yeah.
Founding a Therapeutic Boarding School
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Victoria: can you tell us about your school? Yeah, yeah. I just, since you brought it up and that was also the beginning of your next
barb: chapter with horses.
When I was in my mid twenties I came out to California. I had the pretty wild teens and early twenties. That's, I came up through the sixties. So that's, that's was pretty crazy. And a lot of, a lot of destructive behavior. A lot of, you know, we talk about shame, a lot of shame-based behavior.
Hmm. And I started volunteering. Maybe it was an in interning. I wasn't volunteering, I was interning at one of the only therapeutic programs for adolescents in the country. There was nothing available then. There were no wilderness programs, there were no specialized programs. There was nothing. There was one [00:21:00] other school on the East coast, this was on the West Coast.
And I was at that school for eight years. And it was fascinating. It was very cult-like. Mm-hmm. It was based on Syon, if you're at all familiar with Syon. It was a very harsh recovery, but drug recovery program that was popular at the time based on s and lifespring and all of those TA programs and,~ uh,~ tm transcendental meditation and all of those programs.
But this was a it was a fascinating experience. ~Uh, ~you went through a. Pretty much, even, even as a staff, you went through it as a student. So workshops and groups constantly and introspection. A lot of shame-based stuff. A lot of it was, was based on that and it was kind of a concept of tear down the person to their nothing so you can build 'em up again.
And that was sort of the premise at the time. Wow. And we, at one point a group of us [00:22:00] decided that we weren't crazy about how things were being run, so we left and co-founded a, co-founded our school in northern California. Wow. In 1984. And it was beautiful. We were on 260 acres. It was, it was stunning.
It was a lovely, lovely program. Changed many things with it. I ran the counseling department basically was head of the counseling and. Yeah, we worked with adolescents. It was about a two year program, so we had kids for a couple of years. So it was all about creating relationships and bonding.
And again, as we've talked about, there's a lot of things now in hindsight, I would've done very, very differently. ~Uh, ~some of the kids that we didn't serve very well because of some of their challenges. And we also did some fabulous work and created lifelong relationships with kids that are now in their forties.
Wow. Fifties, you know? So, and it was about healing the family and bringing these kids back to [00:23:00] themselves and allowing them to fall in love with themselves again and who they, who the essence of them was, and who and what they'd lost, and how to get that back. So it was yeah, it was, it was magnificent.
Amazing. It was amazing. Yeah. And it, it, unfortunately, a lot of the things that we didn't like about our initial program that I was with, got dragged along with us. And it was there was a lot of,~ uh,~ unhealthy management styles and that kind of thing, and it imploded. I mean, we went from being literally the top of the game at one point, and, and it closed very suddenly and very, very traumatically.
Mm-hmm. And it was one of the, probably most difficult transitions I've ever made in my life. It was very painful. Wow. And I had no choice. It was like, now what? You know, you've lost everything. And now what? And the, now what was stepping into coaching? And deciding I was [00:24:00] gonna try and figure out the next phase, and that's what I did.
Yeah.
Josh: How long was that school open? 20 years. 20 years. And you had eight years before that of working with the other group. Yeah. Yeah. And then you, wow.
Transition to Parent Coaching
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barb: Yeah, and then when we moved up to band in 2005,~ uh,~ I was working at a young adult program college pro program in town that a friend of mine had started and did some coaching for them, and then eventually just bought parent coach professionals and took over some for some folks that,~ uh,~ had brought me on board.
And my business partner, Vicky and I have had that for 11 years.
Victoria: So tell us about parent coach
barb: professionals. Well, parent coach professionals,~ uh,~ which is. Changing as we speak. Right. And the, and the industry's changing, sadly. Our focus is with parents. Mostly we contract with parents whose students or kids have been put in program.
So there's programs now all over the country that are brilliant. They work with [00:25:00] different profiles of students. And they really have explored how to help them develop life skills work with their challenges, figure out who they are, create a healthier, different relationship with their parents, because most of this has been pretty disruptive.
We worked with parents almost exclusively. Try and look at what their strengths are. Most parents will start off cuz they are in crisis. When we begin working with them, they'll start talking about what they've done wrong.
And we wanna focus on what you might have lost the way, but what do you know has worked? What what do you do well? What are your goals? What are your intentions? They often wanna focus on their child's goals and intentions, so our work is to bring them back to themselves and often look at what are some of their patterns, what are some of the things that they have done that they can change.
Certainly communication is probably one of the biggest things we do. We talk about [00:26:00] boundaries, we talk about, I mean, it's exactly, I'm the same thing, which is I ironic because you're always talking to me about left up, clearer boundaries with place. Some parallels. Yeah. Right. You know, and meeting the parents where they are in the moment.
Yeah. And that's the hugest piece because they come to us in crisis, they come to us in deep shame. Mm-hmm. And guilt and embarrassment and every single level of everything that we've all experienced. And we listen. Hmm hmm. And we reflect back and we mirror and we try not to advise. We try to allow individuals to find their own answers in a way that works for them most effectively so that there's sustainability in what they're doing.
I love it. Yeah, I love it because the parents that come to us, they want something different. Mm-hmm. They. Love their children deeply. They've tried everything. You know, they've said, we've done this, we've done this. They feel like they've got a [00:27:00] litany of things that they have tried and they feel have failed at.
So it's an opportunity for them to incrementally get some successes and build on them. Hmm. Yeah.
Victoria: As a parent, that sounds really good. Sounds amazing. It sounds really nice. Yeah. Yeah. Cuz it's so fraught parenting.
barb: It is. I think it's you know, much like we look back at the work we've done with the horses or anything we've done, it's so easy to identify and own and stick with the stuff that you've screwed up.
Mm-hmm. But we don't often really recognize and give ourselves credit and celebrate our victories. Mm. Which we're not taught to do, you know? Mm-hmm. Culturally and everything. We're just not taught that that's something that you get to do for yourself. You don't get to pat yourself on the back.
You're supposed to go in and confess for Gods sake. It's like, what? Right. Come on, [00:28:00] let's identify the good stuff. Yeah. So, yeah, it's really fun. I love it.
Victoria: One thing that you've helped me out a lot with is being more confident with not needing to help people. And I'm talking about horsemanship and riding instruction and horsemanship instruction and horse training you've helped me with, you know, you don't, it's actually works better and you don't have to. Give everybody the answers. Right. That, that they are asking for. Like, it's better to facilitate their own process. Right. And that has been so powerful for me as a, as a writing instructor and as facilitators of this program that we're doing my horse journey because it does, it's more effective when folks figure out their own way that works for them, right?
You have these principles that you sort of, and this framework that you guide through. it's so much, it's so fun.
barb: It's [00:29:00] fun. It's challenging. It is. It's challenging. Number one. There's lots of kudos for having the answers for everything all the time. Right. You know, and it's like, oh, aren't I clever?
But what, what is what is really good is to be able to be in that place of curiosity and let, let them find that so that it, again, it's gotta have more longevity. Most people want you to give the answers. I mean Exactly. Certainly in our work, and I'm sure with you as well. But that's the interesting
Victoria: piece too.
It's like you actually, I sometimes I feel like I'm not doing what I'm supposed to be doing. I'm not doing my part of the deal when I'm not just do it this way, you know?
barb: right. And they, and oftentimes people will just say to me could you just tell me, you know, they, they'll get annoyed with me.
I'm just asking you, what would you do? And I just, you just have to flip it back. Mm-hmm. And you keep flipping it back. And also thank, I use a lot of humor. You have to. Mm-hmm. Cause otherwise you'd crumble. It's a great thing to point out to people, which is what's going on with your discomfort right now.
Mm-hmm. What [00:30:00] would be, what would be different if I gave you the answer rather than you finding the answer. So that's all part of the exploration and you're doing, I watch you do that all the time. Hmm. Yeah.
Victoria: No, that's so cool though. It's, it's, it is fun. It can be more uncomfortable. Yeah. But I do agree it's so much more sustainable and horses, you know, it really is a relationship that you're trying to build.
So for, an instructor or the quote unquote professional or expert to come in and say, do this, this way, it doesn't always translate the same. So you really people I think do better when they come at it with their unique gifts and talents and perspectives. Right. But that does take some mining.
barb: Well, and you might plant the seed. I mean, you know this, I was talking to Josh before you came in. There was something Chrissy said the other day that you've, we've talked about endlessly. And I finally practiced it at the barn the other day. I mean, I go out probably five days a week. And I [00:31:00] thought, don't talk, do it.
Halftime. Move your horse away from where he is. Always zi. And I have a very different day with him. Interesting. How many times have we talked about that? So you plant seeds. Mm-hmm. And they show up when they can. Yes. when you're ready for them. And that I think is that's a hard, you're a placeholder for that.
Hmm. ~Uh, ~and that's a big responsibility. It is. As an instructor, teacher, whomever parent. Right, right,
Victoria: right.
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Josh: I want to get back to the parallels between parent coaching and. Horses cuz there's so many interesting parallels and I'm really excited to connect those dots with you. Sure. I was wondering at first, you, you have this unique perspective cuz when you first started working at the first place you worked, you said there was only two in the country.
Yeah. Now it's like a huge industry. It's all over the place or several, right here in central Oregon. and then you started your own, like, you've just seen the arc of this industry really form.
Challenges in the Therapeutic Industry
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Josh: And I'm curious, you, said in passing that things are changing now, and you said sadly, so I was just curious what's going on there?
barb: There's been a lot of, when we first started work, when I first started working with kids, there was no restrictions. I mean, we spent time with kids, we'd have kids over to our house, they'd come over for meals, they'd come over for [00:33:00] holidays. You could . Sit and, you know, put your arm around him, you could hug him.
There's been so much that's happened that's just tightened all of that up. Some of it for the good and very important. Mm-hmm. And then there's been a ton of legislation that's happened. People get panicked when they hear stories. When you've got an industry as big as ours, there's gonna be problems.
There's gonna be mismanagement, there's gonna be deaths, there's gonna be all kinds of stuff that happen. And so rather than I think really exploring that they've just keep tightening it and tightening it and making it more restrictive. And it's an expensive industry. Mm-hmm. You cannot, I mean, the, the schools that I'm talking about are, really expensive.
It's like putting your kid through a college education and so many people can't do that. So now what is happening is a lot of programs are going to be more insurance driven and short term, So what were longer term programs like? There's no two or three year programs. I mean, if we needed a kid for three years, the parents were willing to do it.
We had them. Wow. Now [00:34:00] it's like three months. Hmm. I mean, it'd be like taking a horse in for three months and doing, you know, quick training and thinking, Hmm, it's gonna be sustainable. So that what saddens me about it is, I think it's not spectacular for the child and I don't think families can move and shift and change and figure out things that quickly.
Not with so much trauma in their past. So, it's not happening everywhere, but we're watching a trend. Okay. And I think also Covid, you know, impacted that as well. So there's a lot of things that are happening. So at this point in my life, I'm, I'm really not doing much more of the.
Program coaching, I'm doing mostly private coaching. Hmm. And it's, it's a good time for me to step back from that, having you seen the whole trajectory. Hmm.
Josh: Interesting. So if I'm hearing you correctly, there's a combination of legislative and regulatory Yeah. Tightening. And then on top of that, the length of time you're able to work with people has gone from [00:35:00] multi-year to like a few months if that in, in some
barb: programs.
Mm-hmm. I mean, it's becoming more attractive. What's happened is it's could be a money making business, so you've got corporations coming in.
Victoria: I was just gonna say it, it sounds to me like the slippery slope of the corporatization Yes. Of healing and Yeah. And it's never, that's never gonna be a
barb: good thing.
Not in my book. No. Right. No. I've watched and in fact that's part of what destroyed this school that we had. I mean, there was so many factors involved. But part of that is people seeing the opportunity to sell a program. And they sell us a big business and they say you're gonna remain autonomous, but you can't.
Mm-hmm. They want heads on beds, as they say. Oh, wow. Right, right. Yes. Okay. And there are brilliant programs out there Sure. That are completely loving and respect and they're hanging on and really trying to do the best that they can with it. But it's a challenge these days. Okay. You know, things working against
Josh: them.
Yeah. Wow. Does that, is that part of why you're new business parent coach professionals? [00:36:00] Is that why you're focused more on parents or was that always the case? No, it was always the case. Okay.
barb: And when I first started doing this work, I mean, back in the late seventies, parents were completely eliminated from the process.
They were considered the bad guys. I mean, they really were villainized and it was partially because of the group I was working with and the work we did, it was like work. We're missing a huge part of our team. Mm-hmm. This is ridiculous. Hmm. So that's where we created parent workshops, parent seminars.
I would go to different parent groups around the country,~ uh,~ to help them sustain what they were learning. And, we embraced that. And I will say with I really feel clear that we have put parent coaching on the map. I mean, it was unheard of. They were like, what are you talking about? So we have really established that.
So most programs now either want to do their own parent coaching internally or they hire out to do it, but everybody, even~ uh, ~therapists now are, are really [00:37:00] embracing that, the whole concept. So there's a lot of wonderful movement with that and a lot of growth around there, which is
Josh: fabulous.
So you saw that need quite a while back and filled that void. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's powerful. Yeah. I can only think of, I mean, not to dis quantify value, but you've probably helped thousands of Yeah. Kids and or families, which would be many thousands of people then. Yeah. Yeah. Truly it is. I mean,
barb: that's, that's true.
Josh: That's powerful.
Parallels Between Parent Coaching and Horsemanship
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Josh: It's kind of interesting just to tie it back to horses and the con resiliency that's similar was our motivation with my horse journey was after, for years working in more goal centric, you know, the, even in the trainer industry where people drop a horse off say, I want to compete in cutting this year.
I want to do the show circuit and get my horse ready for me. And then, you know, you come back a few lessons and then go off. Yeah. So the idea was more to put the focus on the people, you know, our inner journey, so [00:38:00] to speak, the horsemanship begins within to think about what's going on within yourself and how that is affecting your relationship.
So I'm seeing a parallel there. It's huge.
barb: it's huge. I mean, it's a hours of conversation about it because we're talking about what are the most intimate relationships you could have between you and your horse. And,~ uh,~ yeah. I mean, if you. If you can't journey inside, you'd bicycle by bicycle.
Victoria: True, true.
A hundred percent. That's like, that's, yeah. That's like my, yeah. I totally thank you for saying Oh
barb: no, it's, yeah, I don't get it. You know, the buy and selling and it's, it, it hurts by heart.
Victoria: just thinking about the visionary space that you must have been in to see through sort of the villainization of the parents and the sort of the shaming the parents and it's the parents and realizing that,~ uh,~ no, actually the parents are part of the team, you [00:39:00] said.
Yeah. Yeah. And I think about that. to me that's amazing because it means that you were really listening to the kids because kids want their parents to be involved. Kids want their parents to be part of the team.
Understanding the Horse-Person Connection
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Victoria: Yeah. The parents like, that's who they want. Yeah. To figure this stuff out. And I feel like, that's what the horse is.
It's like they just want their person to see them, and they wanna know that their person notices that the horse is seeing their person. And it's so
barb: true. Yeah. And when you're in it and you're developing this, I mean, it, it would sound terrific and I would sound really bright if I thought, boy, I really had this long-term vision.
You're in it and so you're creating it as you go along, or all of a sudden, Things start fitting together. So it, it really is when you're immersed in it. Mm-hmm. I look back at 'em, I think, oh yeah, that was really good. But at the time it's like, we've gotta do something different here. Okay.
The Importance of Parental Involvement
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barb: How can we be working so [00:40:00] deeply with these kids and then send them back to a situation which hasn't transitioned or done anything different at all?
And the kids, when we were working with them, so much of their grief and loss was the loss of that connection with their parents. Yes. So what are we doing Right. You know, if we don't bring that full circle and we don't bring the parents back in what are we doing? Mm-hmm. You know? Yeah. It's fornot.
So, the kids always loved nothing better than knowing their parents were coming to do the work. Right. They were like, we're not, I'm not alone. I'm not the black sheep. I'm not the bad kid. Because we always said, you're enrolling your whole family in this, everybody's gotta do their work.
Mm-hmm. Because we can't, we're not just going to fix. Mm-hmm.
Josh: I got so many light bulbs going off. So
Victoria: many. Yeah. Yeah.
Challenges in Training and Transition
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Victoria: The first one is just like you said, having clients bring horses into training and leave them for, you know, even for long periods, months and months and months.
And then, [00:41:00] the horse would go home after they'd been in training and in a very specific program for a long time, and had a, a knowing that was centered around that experience. And then they go to their new house or their new home with their people. And sure enough, few weeks later you get a call like, this isn't, this isn't working for like this.
Well, and then they
barb: trainer shop. Exactly. It must be the trainer. Yeah. Let's find, yeah. It must be, well it's the trainer, it's the horses. Mm-hmm. It's that it's always outside. Mm-hmm. You know, I suppose sometimes that might be the case. Sure. But not most of the time. Sure.
Victoria: I don't think so. I think Yeah.
But very little of the time. Yeah, very little the time.
Josh: Yeah.
Trauma-Informed Lens in Parenting and Horsemanship
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Josh: It seems like so much of what you're speaking about. , it's a great teaching example talking about kids. Cuz kids are naturally innocent, you know, it's not like they are naturally bad. Right. They may do things that are not good for themselves or for others, but that's usually based on.
Trauma. Yeah. And that probably didn't originate within them like [00:42:00] they were born into this world. Yeah. Unburdened. So where did that come from? And then it's this long thread, I mean, it may be multi-generational, certainly involves the parents and the family. So just that trauma-informed lens, I guess is Yeah.
Is how it's said now. But it seems like you said, in the trenches just doing the work. Oh yeah. You, you just saw that, , it was probably playing his day to you
barb: sometimes. , it was plain as day sometimes.
Epiphanies and Workshop Insights
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barb: And sometimes it would just pop up in the middle of something and you'd go, we used to laugh about this.
I'd be running workshop after workshop after workshop. And there'd be clunky parts of the workshop. And you'd think, are you ever gonna get through this? And about your 500th workshop? And you'd go . Oh, we could tweak this a little bit. It'd be a lot easier. It's like, we didn't, we've been doing it like this for years and we never thought of this one little tiny tweak that would change everything, and that's how it would happen.
Sometimes we just laugh at ourselves and go, God, just because we've done it a million times doesn't mean it's the right way. [00:43:00] And that would of often be why we would create something different.
Victoria: We have a saying around our house that would've been good, you know, yesterday, like, you know, epiphanies you have, that's
barb: really true.
You know, so it, it was,~ uh,~ It was like a mass unit.
Like, I don't know, maybe this tool would work better. We did it. So, but that's exciting. Yeah. It was never dull. Mm-hmm. It was
Josh: never dull. I think that speaks to the value of what you do too. , it would take me like you, just to use your example, it would take me 500 workshops to figure that out, but you could tell somebody out the gate.
So that's one of the powers of mentorship and learning. Exactly. It's like you can take decades and turn it into days. Yes. Through all of this. So you have a lifetime of Yeah, yeah. Of experience and knowledge to pull from. But horses, that's where horses and kids, they really are such great parallels.
Just from that. authenticity the clean slate? Yeah, just the, the willingness,
Victoria: the grace, the willingness, the grace, willingness to look at
Josh: some, because when you [00:44:00] said how excited they were, like they want that connection. They want to have the parents involved. And we feel that with the horses, like they are, they instantly perk up.
They want to connect. You don't ride deer or elk, it's like they're prey animals similarly built Victoria's grandpa said, horses don't have to let us ride them. Yeah. So there's a part of them that seeks and enjoys, connection and relationship.
it's discovering that and then uncovering what it takes to get there. And those are the universal principles that apply to horsemanship or parent coaching equally, I think.
. It's like an ocean. Once you're in it, you're just swimming in it and it's never ending.
barb: You just immerse yourself in that you can just I mean, it's just never stops. It just grows
Josh: and grows.
Principles of Parent Coaching
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Josh: So with parent coaching, I'll put you on the spot. We can put it on your, your coaching hat. Josh, like there, it's alright. Can we get some question in about,
barb: let's get this about parenting? Well, here
Josh: yes. I could have used you. I [00:45:00] still could obviously, but really, like a few years ago I wish I knew this was a thing I didn't know. There were parent coaches, like, you know, there's the joke. They don't come with a manual, but there are coaches. that's an amazing thing cuz the whole world would be better Right? if family units were brought together. It just, cuz it helps interrupt that trauma cycle.
Mm-hmm. I'm curious, just trying to make all these connections with horsemanship, What are, maybe let's just say three, and if you think of more or less, that's fine, but three of the primary principles of relationship, connection, healing, whatever it might be that, that you could, that you think of when working with parents.
barb: Yeah. It's funny if, if I tell anybody what I do, if I'm on a plane and somebody says, oh, what do you do? I tell 'em I'm a proctologist. Cuz the questions don't follow. I really don't. But I think about it. That's a good way. But people go, so, so what would you tell me about it? And I think very much like with horses I think parents want their kids to be happy.
And as I [00:46:00] say to them, that's a result of, I think respect,~ uh,~ boundaries. Certainly love. I don't, I think unconditional love is something that one can. Conceptualize and think about, it's not very practical. Hmm. ~Uh, ~so I think love with with clear boundaries, with clarity. With expectations. That's not three, that's a lot of words.
I think communication,~ uh,~ respect and oftentimes getting out of the way and letting your child be, Hmm
Victoria: hmm. Those are the hard ones first, just
Josh: like I was hoping you'd say something a little easier.
barb: Hot one.
Victoria: Those are literally the hardest things for us to do, like, so That's so helpful and [00:47:00] also uncomfortable that you brought us up cuz it's like, Those are the ones.
That's it. That's what we need some coaching on.
barb: And that's what you, we talk about all the time with the horses, you know, and, and part of what I've shared before is that our stories get so in the way. And one of the things that was most an impediment with my growth with Blaze was me continuing to tell his trauma story.
Hmm. Blaze doesn't repeat his trauma story. He doesn't even know that he's got one. And I would tell it, and I could use it as excuses and I found myself telling it all the time. And that was my description of him, right. And he's so much bigger and more than that.
And it was so limiting, and it was limiting in what I was willing to try and do with him, or what I was trying to seek with him. I mean, this is a magnificent. Talented athletic horse that I was so proud I could lead around on a halter's, like hello. So I had to get outta my own way, ah and let go of the story, [00:48:00] which I still have vestiges of and it comes in all the time and when it's convenient.
But I think we do that as parents too. You know, and I've done workshops with parents, which is, what is your story? And I've used my narrative with Blaze to help them understand how much of a burden that can be for the children and how many barriers that can put up. And even though you've gotta go out and advocate like crazy with a kid with a challenge and you've gotta be there for them and it's imperative and they can't do the that for themselves.
Initially. Stepping back from that and allowing that is one of the, probably the most difficult and challenging and greatest gifts the parent can give their child. Or our horses. Mm-hmm.
Josh: Yeah. I love that. There's a paradox there too, what I'm hearing cuz when you say that, and I think of how that would feel to do that, it's actually like a big release.
It's like a, it's like takes a burden off your shoulders. It's [00:49:00] like, oh, that sounds amazing. And how freeing that would be. But yeah, as we started, like that is so challenging to actually do. So that seems to be a bit of the paradox. Like, it's so hard, but it's so easy at the same time.
barb: Well, and I don't know that it's necessarily easy to let go of the rains.
Mm-hmm. To ride on loose rains. I wouldn't say that. And I think if you've got some other things to back you up and you've got some places of feeling of confidence or you've got some skills or other tools, like I could not be writing loose rain if we hadn't done all the other work ahead of time.
I mean, if you put me on blaze instead of now ride with a loose rain now,~ uh,~ I couldn't have done it. Right. So, once you've done it and you've gotten to that place, it does feel easy. The release feels easy, but releasing your children and their wellbeing and where they're going, woo. Nothing easy about that.
Yeah, nothing easy about that. Hmm. At all. Mm-hmm. No.
Josh: feel like I need to pay [00:50:00] you for a session after this. Yeah. My son, tell Colin,
barb: Colin, who's,~ uh,~ my, my second favorite son who's a coach, and he works for me. He's a brilliant coach, and he reminds me all the time when I step out, line and start driving, I heard you. I grab the reins and he's like, Get over yourself.
What are you doing? Stop it. Oh, he just right me up in two seconds. Cause it's
Victoria: natural when your son becomes a parent coach. Yeah. I
barb: mean, yeah. That's,
Josh: that's inception. You had
Victoria: a good, yeah. Had a really good berry. Yeah. Taught by the best. Like Yeah. I think that's, that's saying something. Yeah.
barb: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Yeah. He it.
Josh: Okay, so you talked about a couple principles that I think were really powerful with everything, and then we can certainly tie it back to horses. One was communication and the other was boundaries. Uhhuh, and I know Victoria has a really beautiful quote that we use a lot [00:51:00] in the horse journey coaching. Do you remember that?
Oh,
Victoria: it, yeah. It's not my quote. It's,~ uh,~ apprentice, Hemphill, They say, let me get this right. Boundaries are the space within which I can love. You and myself simultaneously. Oh, sweet. Right. Yeah, that's, that's a good one. And yeah, but I, that's sort of what I'm Okay. Hearing when you talk about boundaries and the coaching, that's certainly the lens or the way I'm trying to frame boundaries when I'm working with folks and their horses.
Right.
Boundaries in Relationships
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Victoria: So I'd love to hear your thoughts on boundaries.
barb: Well, I think they're the framework of any relationship. I don't know that you could have a relationship, a healthy relationship without boundaries. Because it does help keep the individuals, whether it's two humans or human, and a horse, it does allow them to have their [00:52:00] own autonomy and their own identity and their own values. And then the boundaries figure out where they can meet, I suppose. Mm-hmm. And where they can interact in a healthy way.
it's so interesting cuz you're always talking to me about boundaries with Blaze because I think it's so adorable when he steps into my space and wants to be with me all the time. Mm-hmm. So it's like, oh God, that's just the sweetest number one. I love what he nuzzles with me, but it was also something that I've dragged along with me, which is he doesn't trust any, he does trust me though.
Mm-hmm. And that's the sweetest thing. And he really does. I mean that the, the connection there is really strong. But I think where we wanna develop that more, and it's the same with kids, is with an attunement. So it's not just about me and what I'm doing, it's really having to see blaze. Or your child, what their needs are and respecting 'em and not have it try and fit my [00:53:00] expectations or what I want or what I need.
Hmm. I think the biggest thing that we do for our animals, our horses or our kids, is we feel like we're doing them a favor when we do things for them. When we make it easier for them, when we think like we're creating a smoother path for them. And in fact, in, in many cases, we're ripping 'em off. Mm-hmm.
And we're taking away the opportunity for them to see what they're capable of, to see what they're able to do for themselves or on their own. and I think healthy boundaries also means that sometimes you do have to step in mm-hmm. And you can help. But it's not about, You, it's about what they need and how it's going to enhance who they are and help them grow.
Josh: That's powerful. The another parallel I'm, I'm seeing you talk about is like children seek the guardrails. Yes. The framework you called it. Yeah. Like they seek that, and we know that [00:54:00] horses are seeking that too. And we see that as,~ uh,~ one of the most common problems people have with horses is not knowing how to communicate boundaries and not knowing how to establish, partly because they don't really understand horse language and culture, so they misinterpret things.
So I just think that's interesting that both populations, children and horses are seeking boundaries and they're gonna push until they find the boundary and they may push so far that things get dangerous even.
barb: Right? Yeah. And then, it's considered bad behavior, right? That it's about them.
Yes. That's when we tighten up with more restrictions for a kid. Yeah. Or a different bit or a different gear on a horse. Because it's so easy to blame them. And when you've got a child that you're developing whether they've been abused or not that lack of clarity creates anxiety that they will fill in with what they know.
And that's when that gets [00:55:00] really agitated and activated and, and all of those pieces start to come to the surface because they don't know what to do. Hmm. And it just builds. Mm-hmm. So the more clarity we have, and it's what you always talk about the better for them.
Communication and Consistency
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barb: And when you talk about communication, it just struck me.
it's better with horses because they don't get our words With our kids. We talk way, way, way too much. I say to parents, stop talking, sorry. And listen, we talk at our kids. Mm-hmm. I talk at my horse. And the language is a lack of words often and listening. Mm-hmm. And creating that space for them to come out.
So certainly with parenting, the less we talk, the more our kids might share with us or give us that space. You know, the car ride. Yeah. You're looking at the road and they're chattering. You're going, how come this doesn't happen? When I'm looking at face to face and going, what did you do? Same thing with horses.
You know, the more we can be present in [00:56:00] ourselves and open our mind to curiosity. Obviously it works better for them. You've gotta put a lot of things aside in order for that to happen,
Victoria: Well the boundaries create the space for that to unfold it seems like. Yeah.
Josh: So what do you think, like one of these things that's easy to say, hard to do. So sometimes an acting boundaries. Victoria has helped me a lot with that. I struggle a lot with boundaries with kids and, and still do. But she's helped me see, make those connections that you're talking about. But what do you think gets in the way?
Like, I would need to get really introspective with myself to answer that. But you've seen thousands of people now, like what gets in the way of establishing boundaries?
barb: I think without putting a negative bend on it, cuz I struggled as well with it. The We don't like to be uncomfortable. We don't, we don't like the discomfort. We want to be helpful. We want to be liked. That was a big one for me. Yeah. I want to be seen as the one that comes in and, you know, saves [00:57:00] and rescues.
And part of it is maybe we're just not familiar with them. We haven't been taught them. Mm-hmm. You know, so, so implementing something you haven't grown up with or been taught with is really hard to do, to put that in place. So, you know, the, the parent that is more enabling that's not a bad intention.
Right. You know, it's just what would be better than that? What would be more helpful than that? And being able to recognize your own discomfort with it, you know? For sure. And that, that, I see that all the time with my relationship with Blaze. It's, oh my God, he's, he's gonna feel abused or he's gonna feel like I don't like him, or he is gonna feel this or that.
And the truth is, the more that I'm able to establish boundaries with him, the more confident he is. In so many ways. It shows up all over the place. Yeah. Hmm. And the clarity. So we talk about when I talk to parents, clean, clear, concise and concrete communication, there's a lot of alliteration there. But that's the same thing with the horses is don't use my hands a million times.
Don't be in [00:58:00] his face. Do let plant them, leave 'em, and let him figure it out from there. Mm-hmm. So that's degree and paralleled.
Josh: what are those four Cs again?
barb: Clean, clear, concise. And I say concrete. Because for those,~ uh,~ are black and white thinkers and processor, we fill in all that shit in between and they're like, gone.
So land it. Oh, okay. And then be quiet.
Josh: Oh, that's perfect for horse. It is. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Embodiment and Self-Worth
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Josh: I was thinking, and I don't really have it super well formed, but with the, the boundaries, part of it's like, Even a personal confidence or empowerment too. Mm-hmm. I feel like part of it's that, and we see that a lot with people with working with horses, and part of that is because of the other things you said.
Maybe they just literally don't know what it looks like cause they'd never seen it before. But it seems, it's very, I. Empowering personally, I'm sure you felt that working with parents when you help them have those aha moments. Yeah. And just step into
barb: that. I do think it's connected to go, go back to it.
I think it's connected with self-worth. Mm-hmm. You know, [00:59:00] it really, you know, the work that we're doing and peeling back those layers, you have to be pretty clean and clear with yourself. Mm-hmm. In order to set boundaries consistently. Mm-hmm. And none of us are in that place all the time. Right. Yeah. You know, when we, when it's brought to our attention or we really have something we need to resolve it, it helps.
But it, it really is connect. At least for me, it's connected to self-worth. Okay. And my view of myself and my story about myself and all of that, so. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's, this is not like, okay, 1, 2, 3, we're gonna put boundaries in place, not gonna be good. How do you practice that? How do you communicate with your children?
If you haven't been in that place, you haven't been with your horse, it's okay to step in and start doing it. Just cuz you haven't done it before doesn't mean it's not gonna be impactful and you can't practice it. I mean, of course it's are really forgiving. ~Uh, ~kids are just grateful.
They might scream and shout about it initially, you know, ~uh, ~when you take the iPad away, but it's like, oh, yay, somebody's in charge. Right. And if you're, they don't have [01:00:00] somebody in charge, it's really scary.
Victoria: Right. it's actually frightening. It is, right? Yeah. Mm-hmm. And we see it working with people and horses in the boundaries setting and especially when it's sort of a new concept or working on setting clearer boundaries.
Yeah. Or, or new boundaries. There's an embodiment piece to it with the horses. That is fascinating when you talk about. What gets in the way, one of the things is just uncomfortable. You can see that manifest in Right. Our bodies. Yeah. When we're working with horses and all of a sudden we have to set up this sort of, maybe even a spatial boundary, just like, a boundary bubble around your body.
And you can see we struggle with that, just the uncomfortableness in our own skin, in our own bodies. And the horse is all about body. Yeah. Yeah. And so, I just think that's a really fascinating piece of boundary work with horses and then obviously [01:01:00] parallel kids, but it's,
barb: it's huge. And when I think about my doing, I overdo it.
You know, when you've said to me, set a boundary, I overreact. And it might be sure. Your kid. That's it. You're never gonna drive the rest of your life. Or you're in your room now for the next 10 years and you're thinking, really, I'm stuck with this now. Yeah. But it, I think about when you say that to me, it's kind of, I come in a little bit harder until I can find my own space and comfort level with that.
Mm-hmm. So it's, it's a, you have to seek it. It's good work. Yeah. It's real good work. I haven't thought about the embodiment, but that's very, very true. Right. And
Victoria: then and then going back to the inherent worthiness, you have to believe that you're worthy. Yeah. Just, just as you are. Just inherent self-worth.
Yeah. In order to be able to set like an authentic boundary boundary that comes from a place that's, That's grounded in like what you really need. Yeah. What the other person really needs. It's, yeah, it's just [01:02:00] boy, this stuff just
barb: gets, it's so deep and it can't just be hard work.
Right. It can't be just hard. Cuz har would be like, oh wait a minute, he looks so sad, or he's really miserable, he's crying, or he is upset with me. It can't be that. It's gotta be really a whole bigger I suppose combination of things that you're really looking at is worth your need really supersedes warmth in that case.
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. You gotta be willing to be uncomfortable if you can never do it.
Josh: That makes me think of the word harmony. Harmony with horses is a concept we're all seeking, and it seems like boundaries are the balance of the heart work. You know, you can't really have one without the other. Yep.
Either. And they balance each other out. I love that. That's,
barb: that's exactly right. Yeah. That's kind of your gatekeeper of, of keeping it honest, I suppose.
Josh: And I think what you said too was really, really helpful and hopefully freeing for people that you can start now. You know, you can start anytime.
In fact, you haven't [01:03:00] done it before, doesn't mean you're screwed. Absolutely not. Like you can start right away. And horses are so forgiving, so willing, every day's fresh. I might make a mistake yesterday, come back today as our friend Ty said, ask for forgiveness or maybe a process around that, but start fresh just start now and you don't have to get it perfect the first try.
No,
barb: no. And I think that's, So true. And I think you have to try it on, right? You have to try it on and see what works for you. I mean, I might watch somebody that's got great boundaries, but that's not my style. Right? It's not comfortable for me. I might have to step into it really slowly, but it's, it's forgiving yourself and giving yourself permission to try something new, right?
Victoria: And that goes back to everybody's got their own process. And, and so, you know, watching the YouTube videos or taking the lesson or having the trainer do the horse, that's probably not gonna be sustainable because that's not necessarily [01:04:00] your process. Right? Or your style, or your lens. Right? And and so ultimately the most powerful work is the work that we do, with ourselves.
Yeah. With our horses. and when the horse. the clean slate of the horse and asking the horse for forgiveness, that is all very true, but it doesn't mean that we might not have to work through some of the stuff that's happened because of our lack of boundaries. And I think that's where folks get tripped up.
I know I've been tripped up with that before. It's like, well I'm, I'm starting fresh and I'm doing it right this time, and the horse is still like, kind of doing the, the same things.
barb: Well, such a good point. Getting back to the parallel of parenting and horses. Mm-hmm. It's gotta be consistent. Mm-hmm. It's gotta be consistent.
So you can't go out one day, go something about me. Check that off. I got that one yet. It's gotta be consistent because they won't believe it. I mean, think about kids setting about it. You've gotta be consistent with it. It's gotta be sort of a quiet [01:05:00] consistency. And then they can, we talk about trust, right?
And developing that trust, that mutual trust. It's only gonna come through consistency. You can't change it up every day. Right. and sticking with it. and it doesn't have to be harsh. I, you know, parents are like, well, I've never done that before and I'm afraid to say that to my child. Let him know that you're, you're working on yourself.
Right. And that things you're trying to change some things you're doing so that the relationship can change. I ask parents to be really transparent about that all the time. Not with little kids, but with kids that can understand we're gonna be, changes some things. Cause I hadn't liked how I've come into this relationship in this situation and I'm working on myself and in order for me to do this, I can't support this.
And that's what we do with the horses too. Mm-hmm. I think, or I mean, we don't, I don't say to blaze changing this, but I don't have to come in heavy handed cuz all of a sudden I'm gonna be boundary
Josh: conscious, right. I could see where even just writing that, saying it to yourself, journaling, it is helpful.
Cuz that is an [01:06:00] interesting thing with the communication aspect is you talked about talking too much with kids and that's a thing I find myself doing that constantly. And of course that's a thing with horses and, it is helpful with horses cuz they literally don't speak human words. Mm-hmm. ~Uh, ~but there's so much communicated non-verbally.
And of course there's all this research now, especially with texting and emailing, we're even amongst humans. Like we're here in a room together talking, even on Zoom, you get to see each other versus a text, you know, where like 80% of it is lost through just texting. ~Uh, ~and I think that's really interesting.
But the language part, we do need to use language too. So that's another one of the paradoxes Of this thing, like we come to realizations and we learn things through language. So I just wonder if what you're saying there like that you don't literally say it to your horse necessarily, but you would say it to yourself and you maybe write it down, maybe say it out loud.
That might even be a helpful exercise. Cuz like our [01:07:00] work with the book club and looking at Brene Brown stuff, she's really helpful with like, putting names to emotions and feelings. Cuz like most of us can only name maybe three or four emotions. You know, most, most people can only name a handful. Whereas there's really a list of dozens and dozens.
There's so many nuances and scales and variations and all of that. So,
Victoria: it creates a clarity when you have the language, you know, and then that clarity can maybe resonate in your body and then, you know, there you are with the horse and you're more
barb: clear. Yeah. when we talk about Language is important.
It's the filler that gets it our way. And you know, I think about, so with listening Chris the other night and having her staff do silent, bring the horse in. I brought Blaze in yesterday. I said hello to somebody that was there. Just cause they, I didn't wanna be rude. I took 'em to a new place in the barn to groom him.
I didn't talk to him, I just was with him. He was so calm and lovely. He did a little bit of liberty work and he was, it was very different because [01:08:00] it's not that I'm talking Adam all the time, but it takes my brain away from being calm. Mm-hmm.
I'm just chattering words. Mm-hmm. And so I think it's that intentionality, which is so important, right? Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Victoria: I think about. the amount, I think of all of that chatter that's in our heads that we're thinking about when we're just sort of grooming or even when we're, riding or just warming up or whatever as white noise it is to the horse.
Like, I just feel it. Or not even It's notable. Yeah. It's like that fuzz on the tv. When we used to have TVs that had channel static, static static, static, static. I don't even know what the word is cause there's no such thing anymore on, you know, cause we just have digital, or I don't even know what we have internet TVs, but
barb: well done.
We're catching. Right. Thank you.
Victoria: But the point is, it's like static. It is. It's just like, it's kind of disconcerting and a little weird and and clearly no real communication [01:09:00] is happening right at that moment. So, yeah. I, I think that's it.
Lessons from Horses
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Victoria: I was gonna say, are there bef, we just have a few more questions left.
Okay. But before we do those, are there any projects or things that you've got going on that you're involved in, organizations that you would wanna. Talk about or No, nothing
barb: like that. You guys just, you guys, you're my focus and my project
no, I'm just trying to keep it really simple these days.
Victoria: Okay, so here's one that's kind of fun. What are the top three things that you would say are the most meaningful? things that horses teach people.
barb: Oh, wow.
Compassion.
I think nobility. Ooh, I love that. Yeah. Humble. Humble. Mm-hmm. Humbleness,~ uh,~
connection doesn't sound big enough to me. Right. I, and at a two, and it's cuz I've [01:10:00] got it so in my head, but I think that
yeah. That, that whatever, that bridge, that, that connection, that heart connection, um mm-hmm. To another being. I don't know if they teach us that, but that's what comes with it to me. Mm-hmm. I think they teach us, they can teach us, they should teach us patience. Mm. ~Uh,~
quiet and calm to listen. Hmm. I'd be curious. It's a lot. 20 more than three.
Victoria: That's okay. Yeah. Yeah. Because I think all those things are really important and Yeah. Yeah. They do indeed teach us those things.
Josh: Yeah. The nobility and humility, I thought were, that's not really something that's just such a neat combination.
It is, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah.
barb: Yeah.
Victoria: there's a, a connectedness. I know what you mean. The word connection is so, just doesn't sum it up. Yeah. and then you talked in the beginning about this old [01:11:00] Yeah. The sense of like this ancient connection. Yes. Yeah. And that's, to me, it's like a, a connectedness to everything.
Yeah. Mm.
barb: Yeah. Yeah. And I, and I don't know, for me, I don't know where else I get that. I mean, I can look at it certainly when I'm out in nature. As I said, if you're. You know, sitting in an ancient ruin someplace and it's like, wow. I mean, you could just, to me, you could just feel your connection to the earth and, and the universe mm-hmm.
Through that. mean, where else do you, we certainly don't get it on the subway. You're not getting it with toing or whatever the hell they do. .
Victoria: Here's one. When it comes to horses what do you feel?
Gratitude and Connection
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Victoria: Gratitude
barb: for?
Everything. Everything. Mm-hmm. I think, the wholeness, the wholeness of myself that I experience with them. As I said, you know, it's like, it's like truly home. Mm-hmm.
Josh: We've [01:12:00] been reading,~ uh,~ a book by Dan Siegel called Said Intra connected. Intra connected. Intra Connected, yeah.
he was influenced a lot by science, but also Buddhism. And the first noble truth of Buddhism is that we're all one, and the source of suffering is losing that sense of connection. Mm-hmm. And in the interconnected part, I just hear you saying that on both your qualities of horses and what you're grateful for.
Victoria: One word to describe the kind of horse person you aspire to be.
barb: Always seeking and learning.
Victoria: Yes. Yeah. Yes. All of that. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. this has been amazing. Oh, good. Yeah. Yes.
barb: Yeah. Thank you. Oh, you're
Victoria: welcome. Thank you for showing
barb: up, and Oh, you're welcome. Oh my God. I hope it's okay.
Victoria: This has been an amazing conversation. I've loved every second. Oh, good.
barb: Oh, I'm glad. Oh, we can always talk. We can always talk about it over one or, [01:13:00] yeah. But yeah. Good. I hope so.
Victoria: Well that's what these conversations we're hoping are this podcast. Like we've had some amazing conversations with the people that we've had on the podcast and and there's been a few times where like, oh, I wish.
I wish we were, were recording that so other people could hear it. And so this good. Yeah. This felt like something that we could have done over dinner, over wine, but also it's kind of cool to like share it and maybe Oh yeah. Other people will be thinking, yes. Good.
barb: That's what
Victoria: I thought. And that's how I feel.
barb: Yeah. Well it is when you listen, when I listen to different things. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's helpful. It's really helpful. I love
Victoria: listening to that podcast, so thank you, barbre. Welcome. You're welcome. Thank you. This has been wonderful.
Josh: Good. Yeah. Thank, thank you, Barb. Yeah, you're welcome. Yeah.
Final Thoughts and Acknowledgements
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Josh: We're all on this journey together, so, oh, I, I think it's very helpful to share and Yeah.
And you have so much to share. I just wanna acknowledge that too, that you've just, I just see you and I think of, it's almost like the room is just full of the [01:14:00] thousands. I just want to honor and acknowledge you for that.
Thank you.
barb: I think that's what, why I felt such immediately meeting you guys, why it, I felt such an affinity for you, because it, I think it's all of us that are healing and doing this in our own way and then be able to come together with that is just the boast, magnific, and gift of me.
I'm not kidding. Hmm. Yeah.
Victoria: Thank you.
It's a community that we're in. Yeah. Everybody's got something connected and talking about connection, it's like, yeah. That's why we're doing this is so that we can be in the company of people like you. I mean, it's like, this is what we need. This is, the world we wanna live in. Mm-hmm.
barb: That's phenomenal. It's phenomenal. It's phenomenal. It's beautiful. You should celebrate that. Yeah.
Josh: Thank you Barb, for joining us. I know hopefully this is just first of many and I know we're planning some workshops and lots of amazing things in the future. But thank you for sharing your wisdom and your knowledge with all of us and anybody who's listening, and [01:15:00] I look forward to the next one.
I hope you enjoyed the show today. We'd love for you to join our free sub stack community for the herd is calling connect with us, engage in thoughtful discussions and access exclusive content. Click the link nearby to subscribe. It's so easy and totally free. We appreciate listening. And as always, may the horse be with you.
