Jacob part 2
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[00:00:00]
Introduction to the Herd is Calling Podcast
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I'll give you an example of, Dominique likes to talk about how, one of the more powerful exercises that we use in classical writing is the shoulder in, it's a gymnastic movement and he talks about the history of people that invented it and that knowledge came at the same time in different parts of the planet, but they were doing basically the same thing that's a waking up to something that's already there.
It's a recognition of consciousness that we all share. And yoga is that, it all goes back to the , we are one concept. We are one consciousness,
Welcome to the herd is calling podcast. This is where we break free from conventional norms to explore the art, science, and wonder of the horse human connection. I'm Josh Williams. And together with my wife, Victoria, we're your hosts. Our mission is to inspire. you to improve the lives of horses.
Subscribe to The Herd is calling on Substack for behind the scenes stories and unique content. Now let's get to the [00:01:00] episode.
Welcome to the herd is calling podcast.
Meet Jacob Homer: Our First Guest Returns
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We have Jacob Homer back for part two. Apparently we didn't scare him away after the first podcast we did. And it's special having Jacob back for multiple reasons.
One is he was our first guest. And two, somehow we talked Jacob into leaving Healdsburg and Barbier Farms for a weekend to come up to our home base in Madras, Oregon to do a workshop at the end of July. What's the title of that workshop? Equine Assisted Embodiment. Fascinating. Yeah. Jacob doesn't know what he's getting himself into, but I think he likes it.
I think he's excited. I think he's here for it. I am. I'm ready.
Exploring Embodiment: Yoga and Horsemanship
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I'm excited. And that's great. So embodiment, it's a word we hear a lot, but it's one of those, it feels like it can be defined a lot of different ways. What does [00:02:00] embodiment mean to you? Well, I think ultimately to me, to put it simply, I think embodiment is practicing something you can talk about ideas a lot, but practicing them is different and I think a lot about in terms of yoga as a embodied philosophy.
That's a really interesting thing because most of the time when you think of philosophy, it's a pretty heady subject, you know, and you can spin yourself around and around. But when you implement some tools and you start actually bringing those tools into the body, even in a physical sense, you know, to start with, and then you start living that.
I mean, that's embodiment. Yes. Oh, wow. That's really good. That's so cool, Jacob. I've never thought about it like that or heard it said like that before, and it's just kind of blowing my mind. Yeah. [00:03:00] So, embodiment is practice. That is really cool. Yeah. It can be looked at, I think, as something that we're trying to attain, and there's a sliver of truth there.
But I also think that. It's not about really attaining anything. It's just about practicing every day. The thing that you want to emanate. Yeah.
The Subtle Body and Energetic Practices
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And Jacob, just to, if you could let me brag on you a little bit for anybody that might be listening that didn't know you were here, the first podcast, you're a really accomplished Yogi and you've really gone deep down that path, which I know is a lifelong path, but you've put some time into that and really gone deep And you're also working down at Barbier farms right now for One of the people we most admire in the equestrian world, Dominique Barbier and his wife, Debra Barbier, what's your title there?
I don't want to say it wrong. So according to different people, I have different titles because I'm not really a working student anymore. I came [00:04:00] back to work more closely with their assistant trainer and. I don't really have a title, which is kind of great. I help with some social media. I help in a more hands on with more of the horses in the barn and I've been given free reign with some things here and there.
And so I'm kind of like in between a working student and what they would consider an assistant trainer because Lauren is their assistant trainer. That's her full time job, so I don't even have a title. It's kind of cool. That's wonderful. Yeah. That is cool. Floating around. Just kind of there absorbing.
Going where I can help and learning as much as I can. That's huge. And that's pretty embodied too. I kind of love that. No title. Just being there. In, in the universe, in the energy. That's, yeah, that is cool. that's kind of like the, really the essence of the tradition too. sure there are titles and all that stuff.
That's what I want to be respectful of classical tradition and [00:05:00] lineage there from Dominique. But at the end of the day, a lot of these great arts, the way they were transmitted traditionally, it's just by being in the environment, you know, when you talked about the embodied practice, it reminded me of a friend and mentor of mine.
Ross, who has been studying Indian music for like 60 years. He's pushing 80 years old now. And he had this story where he went to India in the late sixties and he got to meet great maestro there. And he was almost a hundred years old at the time. The maestro, he was considered like the Beethoven of India.
He. Very powerful personality and Ross and a student friend of his, they were pretty young at the time, got to meet him and it was a really special moment and they were introduced as a Sarod player and a table player to the instruments from the tradition. And before he said a word to them, he motioned them towards him.
And he asked to see the topple player's fingers, right finger. Because when you practice a lot, you got a little kind of spot right here. And he also asked [00:06:00] to see Ross's fingernails, because you can tell, because they actually play on their fingernails. It's unique. And you can tell how much somebody practices by looking at their fingers.
So I thought that, Really as an example of like the embodiment part, like he was like, okay, you say you do this, but are you really doing it? You know, the evidence was in the body. That's cool. That's beautiful. Yeah. I love that. A lot of sense. You have to do the thing that you want to do all the time. And we were just talking to Kelsey John, Navajo woman who is a horse woman and PhD in gender studies and different modes of education and learning.
And she was talking about that sort of embodied learning. She didn't call it that. It was more just like, you know, indigenous ways of learning are just. and start doing it with the people who know how to do it, the elders. And that's a little bit of what you're talking about too. There's not this system [00:07:00] that you have to go through and there's not like a sitting down and being talked to.
It's like very experiential. It's very embodied. It's like doing the thing until you figure out how to do the thing. Yeah. You can have someone to reflect with. When you're doing that thing, but ultimately you have to just do the thing. Yeah. I was having the elders around to just watch you do the thing and say, okay, that's going to get you into trouble.
Maybe shift a little bit right there. Something I was excited to chat with you about today, Jacob, because it represents you in so many ways and represents what we're going to be doing together at the end of July. It's just that intersectionality of. Yoga and horsemanship, both really ancient traditions, both really rich.
There's both so many different off branches of variations and worldwide now worldwide exposure. So I'm just curious what that means to you because from, we've had a chance to talk a few times. And I think the style that you're learning, [00:08:00] both of those is just really awesome. And. I just think you have a really unique perspective on that because there seems to be a lot of parallels and maybe we could explore some of that.
Yeah, well, for me to kind of bring it down to something more pointed, I guess it would be the energetic aspects of both of those practices. And yoga is a practice that allows you, in whatever form you're practicing, there's many, it allows you to get in touch with the subtle body in a way that produces a certain level of awareness.
I guess you could say that that's useful in everyday life. You know, if the yoga is working, it's helping you outside of your practice. And it's about being present and about understanding that there's, you know, one of the definitions of yoga is to, is to unite or to yoke the mind, body, [00:09:00] and spirit. But my favorite Take on that that I've heard is that it's not really uniting anything.
It's already united. It's just bringing your awareness to the fact that you have a body. You have a mind and you have a spirit or subtle body, whatever you want to call that. And it's that recognition and awareness of that fact. That starts to bring a certain amount of growth. You start to pay attention to it just because you know, it's there.
And then things cultivate themselves. You begin to do the work without really trying to do it necessarily. If that makes sense. And I feel like horsemanship is very similar. Once you understand the connection and. How to be present and how to be embodied within yourself. The horses respond to that. And so, it's a, it's a practice in itself that could be considered yogic.
Even just the [00:10:00] practice of riding in a certain way could be considered a yogic practice because it requires a certain level of concentration and focus. And it can look a lot of different ways. But even just how we interact with the horses. It's a reflection of how you might interact in other areas of your life.
And so it's a mirror, just like the yogurt. practices are a mirror. If you're, for as an example, if you're practicing on your mat, let's say, and you're practicing like what most people think of when they think of yoga is asana practice or postures, and you approach it in a way that is, let's say, forceful, you're going to get a certain result from that.
Versus if you, and then let's say on the other end of the spectrum, you practice in a way that's not, you know, that's maybe lethargic, you're going to get a certain result from that. And then ultimately, if you find that place of balance between the two, you're going to [00:11:00] get what I would probably say is the best result, which is more balance.
So you get what you put, you get what you put out, essentially. And I feel that the horses are another really great example of that practice. Yeah, that's great. There's a lot there to unpack. Yeah. It's beautiful and so good. So that's all I'm just making space for you to keep talking. Yeah. Well, I feel like that pretty much sums it up for me.
I could go down that rabbit hole for a while and then probably get confused. But that's a good point, right? I do that too. I love what you said earlier about. I think you said yogic philosophy. Is that, was that what you said? And how that's even like a paradox, right? Like yoga's in the body, philosophy's in the head, but there has to be, there has to be both.
And there's the balance piece and the equanimity piece. And that's what harmony is. Being able to find [00:12:00] that space as you jog or toggle between the two truths. I think that I have found when I start really thinking or maybe writing about horses and, for example, horsemanship or my practice with horses or working with people and horses, oftentimes I do get to these points where it's like, Ooh, now I'm a little confused.
Now I really need to stop and think about this a little bit more. And that's wonderful. Yeah, I agree. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's totally wonderful. It's, that's grow. And if you're getting to that point, it means you're searching and you're looking. You're always kind of on the hunt for that deeper thing, which is important.
You know, if you, if you're not doing that, you're not really. Growing, I guess, based on this definition, what we're talking about. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Case in point. It's like, yeah, [00:13:00] what are we talking about? It's a shifty thing. Disembodiment topic. It's like, it's a little bit slippery. I think that's kind of the point though.
Exactly. Grasp, we wouldn't have to do it, you know, we wouldn't have to practice. Yeah, and that actually brings me to a question about culture.
Cultural Perspectives on Yoga and Horsemanship
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I'd be curious to see, or to ask you or talk to you about, what do you think about, especially Western culture, the culture that we're all steeped in right now, in our daily lives, how that, Separates us from our bodies or from embodiment, how that changes our relationships with our bodies with the practices that you're speaking to.
I just be curious to hear what your thoughts are on that. We're in a pretty frenetic environment, most of us, most of the time. And it just is what it is. There's not really anything, unless we go and live in a cave, [00:14:00] there's really not a whole lot we can do about that. So one of the amazing things about yoga is it's an evolving practice.
It's left to the interpretation of the practitioner. It's an experiential practice. and therefore it evolves. And I think it's evolving to a place right now where the medicine aspect of yoga, most of us need a little bit more of a potent dose of that in order to combat that frenetic energy that we're dealing with every day.
The whole world is that way right now, but the western mind on top of that is something that Is kind of a double whammy because we're, we're a goal oriented and linear culture. We want to know how to get from here to there. And that's the important piece to us. Whereas the Eastern mind isn't necessarily that way, especially in the context of yoga, it's not really about getting [00:15:00] anywhere.
It's just about being, and so it's not as linear. We sometimes then even make the practice. I've shared with you before that Dominique, my teacher, my riding teacher, my horsemanship teacher, He says that we ride the way that we are and it's the same thing with yoga, you know, we practice yoga the way that we are and hopefully eventually we get a reflection back if we're paying enough attention in a way that we can begin to shift some of the things that maybe aren't benefiting us.
It can be a little bit of a confusing thing to think about. We make it a certain thing here. And I don't necessarily think it's bad. I just think it's a point in evolution of the practice for us in this culture. We have like adopted a practice that came from a different land, came from a different paradigm, [00:16:00] and we're trying it on and seeing what we can do with it and adapting it in ways that suit us.
For good or for bad, for better or for worse, I guess you could say, yeah. There's a lot of paradox there, isn't there? Yeah, there's a lot. There's a lot. It's a really great question. It's also just a really big question that I don't even necessarily feel qualified to answer, but that's my, that would be my perception of it.
You had mentioned when you first started talking You mentioned the subtle body. And I remember you brought that up a little bit before, and a lot of people that listen to your podcast really resonated with your, description of breathing. Part of that, I think, and I'm still trying to understand it. I'm hoping to understand it even better after you're here for a weekend.
I think it had to do with part of the way you talk about the subtle body, but in full transparency, I kind of [00:17:00] forget. What the subtle body really was. So maybe you could help me remember. Yeah, well, okay. So you can think of the subtle body in a lot of different ways. I think the way that I spoke about it was that your breath is sort of the bridge to the subtle body because it's more of a, it's a physical act to breathe, but you're also moving.
Energy in and out of the body. I mean, air oxygen is an energetic force, just like anything else, but we're able to actually pull it in and out of the body. So that in and of itself is an energetic practice, but the subtle body to me really is the part of us that we don't see that we don't touch in a physical way.
It's both inward and outward. It's, in yogic philosophy, there's a concept of the, something that we call the koshas, which are different layers of the subtle body. And there's a lot of pictures drawn [00:18:00] of the koshas. And depending on that individual's interpretation, it can look usually one of two ways.
You'll see an outline of a yogi, usually someone sitting in like, lotus, a silhouette. And you'll see these layers built outside of them, a lot of times different colors, they have different names. But then there's another image that you'll see where the layers go inside. And that can confuse people at first, it confused me at first.
I'm like, okay, well wait, where are the koshas? Are they out here or are they in here? But the whole point is that it's both, you know, so, so in order to experience the subtle body, you have to go inward, but it also brings you outward in a new way. It can also be thought of as the aura is an example of your subtle body, the sensations that you feel within your body can have something to do with the subtle body.
It's the [00:19:00] energy that is between everything, I guess, is what I would consider the subtle body. It's out there a little bit, but it's also there. Yeah. Oh, that's so fascinating. Yeah. It resonates though. I mean, we've had moments, particularly with the horses. Absolutely.
Practical Applications and Overcoming Fear
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And that's the whole, I think for me, the, one of the, when I spoke to the connection between yoga and horsemanship as being something energetic, that's what I'm talking about.
Because when you, you know, us as humans, we have an ability to feel a certain way and project something else. Right? We can pretend that we aren't feeling a certain way. Horses can't do that. Right off the bat, if we approach a horse in that way, they're feeling our subtle body. They feel our energy. That's how they communicate.
They're an energetic communicator, whether that's via body language, via like a sensation that they feel in [00:20:00] the ether, who knows? But, oftentimes what happens is, as I'm sure you know, and I'm sure you're working with people on this all the time on some level, is that when you present something to the horse that isn't the truth, They feel it and there's a disturbance.
There's a disturbance in the force, if you will, like they don't like it. And so when you learn to actually project what you're feeling in a truthful way, whether you're feeling afraid, nervous, happy, content, whatever it is, the horse appreciates that and then you get proper feedback and you can work from that place.
And so, to me, the whole idea of working with the subtle body is getting in tune with that aspect of it. And knowing, like, okay, what is actually happening with my energy right now? And you notice, You have suddenly the power to change or affect that energy. [00:21:00] And eventually you can get pretty good at that.
And then the horses respond and you get things done faster and faster, just because you're in a place of presence and connection with them. So to me, the tools that yoga are in relation to horsemanship are just really helpful for that one thing. And being able to not only be present with the horse, but.
To fill your energetic space with a feeling, well no matter, depending what you want that feeling to be, and you actually are truthful about that, and you get what I would call like the ordinary thinking mind out of the way, long enough for that energy to come through, and to be projected in an intentional way, you can suddenly have your horse mirroring that energy, and then you two are working together.
So that's the, so that's the piece. That's the bridge [00:22:00] from recognizing how you're showing up or how you're feeling or the energy you're putting out. And then being able to, I don't know if this is the right word, so I'm just going to kind of talk this out, but wield it in a way that you can actually work with the horse and actually move forward in whatever it is you're Trying to do with the horse.
Is that? Totally. Totally. Dominique, when he teaches, he says that horses communicate through pictures. He teaches people to visualize things. For instance, something as simple as if you want to go that direction, you need to look that direction. If you want the horse to relax their top line and lower their head, you need to visualize them doing that.
My interpretation of that is that it's not only a picture in your mind, I think that's the simplest way to describe it. It's a feeling that you have, that you have the opportunity to emit. [00:23:00] From yourself that the horse picks up on. And that's like, to me, the whole magic piece of this, if you recognize an emotion or a feeling that you're having and you own it, the energy moves faster.
So if it's an undesired emotion that you're feeling, if it's, if you're afraid. And you recognize that you're afraid and you work with that fear, then the energy moves. Versus if you're ignoring it and trying to be something else than what you are in that moment, it holds on and it sticks there and it grows and it grows.
So, when we get good at getting things out of the way, then we can make room to, to feel the way that we ultimately would like to. And then, that feeling can get bigger and bigger, and we can, In a sense, flood the horse with that same feeling, and then it becomes this reciprocal, circular sort of exchange of energy that happens between the horse [00:24:00] and the rider.
That makes so much sense. That's helpful. It's, you have to, that, because that's the thing. It's like, okay. I'm afraid this, I know this is not helpful to what I am needing to get done with this horse or in, or just even my relationship with this horse in this moment. But I know it's not helpful to suppress it or pretend that I'm not.
Fearful, but how do I get from that recognition and allowing the fear state to the next? And if I'm hearing you right, it's a feeling it so you can move through it or so that it can move through you maybe? Yeah, exactly. And then setting it up in a way on a more practical level that you. Okay, if you're feeling this way, maybe you're not getting on your horse or maybe you're not doing whatever that thing is that you're afraid of with your horse, but maybe you're doing something else that makes sense for the two of you together so you can [00:25:00] still have a relational experience.
But that energy has an opportunity to move. I'll give you an example. For me, I tend to have a fear of being kicked. I don't want to get kicked, you know, especially when it's a horse I don't know very well. I totally own that and recognize it. What am I going to not do? I'm not going to go behind the horse.
With this feeling and image in my mind of getting kicked because what's probably gonna happen, you know, I'm probably gonna get kicked but if I can recognize that and work with that in a way that makes sense and if I have a general understanding about How to be safer on the horse Then I can work with that and we can still get things done that we need to get done.
And then before you know it, I'm not afraid of getting kicked by that horse anymore. Yeah. Yeah. That's so good. That's so helpful.
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I'm thinking about so many things. I'm thinking about that's where expectations or a plan for the day kind of can get in our way if we're not able to be flexible and relational and be able to shift that plan if all of a sudden we realize it's It's out of our capacity for that day or yeah, very helpful.
And so many times I know I do this, I think this is very common. We [00:27:00] tend to, when we're working with the horse, think about all the things we don't want the horse to do. And so those are the pictures like I don't want the horse to spook at that. Corner. I don't want the horse to walk through that muddy spot in the arena that's slippery.
I don't want horse to kick the other horse that's coming up behind us. Like we start thinking and sort of flooding the horse with those mental pictures, if you will, of all the things we don't want to have happen. And that is exactly where we get into trouble. I feel like. Yeah, totally. And we blow this thing up.
Like needs to it the pressure needs to be released and the bigger you build it the Bigger that eruption is going to be, you know, for example, I've been working with a horse recently that I felt a little bit of tension when I'm lunging him, that he's just going to jump out [00:28:00] of his skin and he's going to rush forward.
And so I noticed with the help of my friend, Lauren, that I was avoiding. moving him forward. We just needed to move through that. And yeah, he might bolt, but if we never broach that subject, it's just going to get bigger. You know, you have to. Be willing to sometimes rip those band aids off and just move through it, but in a way that makes sense for everyone involved.
It's got to be measured, and there's got to be some intention around it, but I think where I just was, I just read something that fear is a clarion call to courage, and so it's, you know, yes, I recognize I'm fearful of, you know, For example, your great example of the horse bolting off, like recognizing and going, okay, having a little space between it and being able to have some equanimity.
Like, [00:29:00] okay, I'm going to ask the source to move forward and, and push through this, push through probably isn't the right, but go ahead and move through this, move with it. Yeah.
Embracing Fear and Courage
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This is a little bit of a radical, but we're pointing to the default for most people. Is to dance around things, and I mean, I'm famous for it, like it's That is my Achilles heel in general is to like dance around the awkward thing that I don't really want to, whether it's with a person or with a horse or whatever it is.
Horses especially don't like that, you know? That's where a lot of problems really end up being created is when you're avoiding things in order for this copacetic feeling to continue, or status quo, rather. But it's a false sense of security and it's, it becomes disembodied. Yeah, the horses feel that, and then that's when you get problems.
And [00:30:00] if you want to call them that, it's really just a question of presence and how honest we're willing to be with ourselves in the moment. What you said about fear, the other side of that coin is courage, but the pathway From fear to courage has to go through the body in so many ways is part of what I heard you guys saying in terms of the embodiment subject I really appreciate what you said to about the congruency with how you're feeling because I often find myself Giving that advice and I need to hear it a lot, but sometimes I sense A little resistance, which is natural where it's, well, yeah, but if I'm feeling this way and it's crappy, like, how can that be a good thing?
But what you said was that like acknowledging it, allowing yourself to feel it gets the energy moving. And I just thought that was wonderful. I feel like I've been leaving that sentence half finished and you just [00:31:00] helped finish it. So I really appreciate that.
The Power of Acknowledgment
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I was once told by a teacher is that wherever you focus, that's where the energy goes.
And you know, you can think of that in different ways, but in this context, like you said, Victoria, if you're thinking about this, perhaps what you don't want to happen, the energy goes there. And also, if you're recognizing the way that you feel, the energy also goes there, and you have an opportunity to work with it.
Because you've, in a sense, given it a name. You're recognizing it. You know, you're acknowledging that it's there and that's what gives you the opportunity to move it or to use it Depending on what it is if it's desirable or not, you know What I hear you saying is that it's always useful. Yeah, how you're feeling Yeah, totally it is useful in the sense that well, [00:32:00] there's always an opportunity to practice Something, right?
I think fear is a great one in terms of, if we're thinking of, or if we're talking about horses, I mean, fear is a big subject. Yeah. Is the fear useful? Some would argue, no, that it's not useful. Is it desirable? Not really. Right. But it can be used in a productive way. It can be recognized in a way that it becomes productive because you're moving that energy and make room for something else.
And there again is the practice. The more times you recognize and acknowledge fear in this case, it becomes more familiar so you maybe. That process starts to, like, I think you said, or even earlier, it starts to happen quicker, like, it starts to Yeah, yeah, because you're just no you're practicing noticing it, you know?
I mean This is so good. It's like, [00:33:00] most of the time we don't want to admit that we're afraid of something, right? So, we're not looking at that. If you're not looking at it, you can't do anything with it. Yeah, I mean, I feel like I'm just saying the same thing over and over, but yeah, we're, we're working it out.
It's worth ringing that bell more than once because I think it's a really big piece of being successful, not only with horses, but just being successful in life. Being willing to look at things, even the things that we don't necessarily like about ourselves or about a situation.
Understanding Energy and Tension
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Yeah, that makes me think about tension in the body.
Like you're talking about energy and we're talking about fear and how that's not necessarily a desirable feeling, but on the other side of that's courage. So I was just thinking about like the quality of energy. And I'm curious too, cause I know yoga. Is really good at [00:34:00] refining a subject. Like maybe there's some kind of a framework, even for energy.
What I was thinking was when we do body work with horses, it's been my experience with people too. It's all parallel, you find tension in the body and the immediate judgment is like tension, bad, you know? Relaxation good. It's the same as saying courage, good fear, bad, but really at the end of the day, it's all just the energy and tension.
If it's tight shoulders on me right now, if it's tension in the pole of a horse or they can't flex through a neck in a certain way, it's just like a blockage of energy. It's. It's not like it's negative energy, it's just the blockage, which speaks to what you said earlier about just allowing the movement or like the pressure release valve too, so I think that helps as Westerners back to the cultural thing too, like seeing things very dualistically is how we're sort of culturally imbued, like the good, bad, you know, for me as a body worker, it was always like, yeah, attention is, you know, I'm here to [00:35:00] eradicate tension.
Tension is the enemy. It's like the storehouse of all this negative stuff. I've been learning to reframe that a little bit differently. And yeah, this conversation is helping me understand that better too. This is just energy that's not moving, you know, the build up of energy that needs to move when you're speaking about tensions physically in the body.
One of the ways you can move that is through the breath, and also through like physical manipulation of the tissue, and also just even bringing your awareness to that area, you know? Right. And I think. We tend to, as humans, and maybe even especially as western humans, we tend to compartmentalize things. We like to categorize and take a subject and pull it all apart.
When you do that, you're, in a sense, you're breaking up the flow of energy. It's like, uh, something that's meant to [00:36:00] be holistic.
Holistic Living and Nature
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And nature, like, here's a great example of the human condition. This is something that my teacher talked about a lot. My yoga teacher is that we as humans have a tendency to think of ourselves as separate from nature, at least in this time in society, in the world, and really the biggest thing is recognizing that we are a part of nature.
We're a part of the whole thing. We're not separate from it. The elements, all of the elements exist within our bodies. And so even just recognizing that is huge. Recognizing it and then operating from that understanding helps us to just live more holistically like we're meant to. Recognize our holistic nature because we are holistic whether we operate within that understanding or not.
Have you heard that phrase that when people talk about being spiritual, it's like [00:37:00] you have a spirit, you're a spiritual. You don't have to do anything to be spiritual. You have, you're a human, you have a spirit, you're spiritual. Yes, when you were talking I was thinking this is our birthright, this is, this is already here for us to have, yeah.
Yes. Yeah, you mentioned medicine early too. Maybe that's Part of the intersection of yoga and horses to the medicinal nature of the healing nature of yoga. It almost seems like it matches the healing medicinal quality of yoga almost like identically. And which I guess leads to another thought of when you think about the subtle body, like you get to a certain layer and it does all just blend together, but in a more practical, that's pretty esoteric and a more practical way, just like how horses are not comfortable when you're not being congruent or embodied or paying attention.
That's another [00:38:00] way to even say it. They're just like such a good check for where you're at, you know? Absolutely. Yeah.
Yoga and Horsemanship
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I mean, that's, to me, that's the thing that I, Started noticing when I came back to horses after practicing, after diving really deep into my practice. And I'm only just now finding the tools to talk about it, but it's really, it's just about being present and being congruent and noticing things.
Instead of just reacting to things, or acting based on some expectation or preconceived notion of whatever the situation is. Instead of just giving it the opportunity to play out. I think the horses help us in a really big way with that. They reflect all of that back to us. I think for me the goal is to get to a place where my horse doesn't have to do so much work for me to reflect that so that I can help my horse [00:39:00] Get to a place where I already know what's going on with me so that I can get out of my own way And be truly helpful to the animal because they help us every day.
But to me, that's the practice. I mean, if you're looking at horsemanship as a practice, I feel like that's a good direction about trying to go. The retreat we're doing together is basically more centered for people who identify as horse people or equestrians. But as you were talking about just the, the power of horses, How great it would be for yoga people to help ground and give a unique perspective to the practice.
Like maybe they're not really even necessarily identify as equestrians, but it just seems like another interesting perspective. If you put it in depth, I've only met like one of these people around. Around an animal, you'll see it right away. [00:40:00] There's no issue. There's no issues. They're just being together.
It's pretty cool. For the questions that we know, a lot of us, like we, we want this, we desire this, we struggle with the lack of it. And I think that's one of the, one of the many ways that yoga is such a beautiful subject because it. It does have practical tools. It has everything. It's kind of like a everything in one, right?
It has this really amazing philosophical stuff has really out of the box, mind bending reality, thwarting mystical roots. You can go down. But then it also has some really practical tools. You talked about breath being the bridge to the bridge analogies come up a few times.
Practical Yoga Practices
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But I know breath was a big one, maybe just to root this a little bit in some practical practices, like what kind of stuff, what kind of stuff will we do together when you come, for example, because I know we're not doing advanced yogi stuff, I'm just curious, like what kind of stuff you're thinking about playing around [00:41:00] with.
I would love to get people in moving their bodies and experiencing their bodies in a more conscious way through some asana, through some postures, um, and then exploring how your breath informs, okay, so in a posture you have what we would call like the external form. Your leg is here, your arm is here, your spine is doing this thing, but there's an internal form as well and that is what the breath is.
works with is the internal form, the movement inside the body that projects outward. An adept practitioner, when they practice asana, they're practicing from the inside out. not from the outside in. They're focused more on the internal form, the, the relation of the breath to the body in such a way that it influences the external form.
And [00:42:00] that's why as the postures advance, as you advance in your ability to access certain postures, the postures get smaller and smaller to the point where you're just sitting. You're not really doing anything big with your And if you look at really advanced postures, They're twisted and pretzeled and folded in around themselves, usually kind of going inward instead of their arms being way out here or their leg being way up here.
That's a great way to feel the body and experience the movement of breath through the body. But ultimately, as it advances, it gets smaller and smaller, you don't need to express it so much outwardly. To bring that back around, because I digress there a little bit. We're going to play with the breath in really accessible ways.
We're going to play with the alignment of the body in very accessible ways, and we're going to touch a little bit on some of the more [00:43:00] meditative energetic practices. I'm going to teach some tools for grounding, some visualization tools for grounding and running, what I would call running your energy.
And getting in touch with your field of energy around you so that you can be in a more centered place and begin to understand what your energy is doing. So the body, working with the body and the breath is a really great way to begin to wake up that sensitivity so that you can begin to feel things in a more subtle way.
So we'll play with some meditative practices we're going to play with. Some breathing practices. We're going to touch hopefully a little bit on bandha and what bandha is Banda means like lock or seal and it's both physical and energetic, but before in our last discussion like we talked about the pelvic floor, the diaphragm, the soft palate, those [00:44:00] are all areas where we can access this thing called banda, which is a seal, in other words, a way to contain energy.
And press the energy from top to bottom and then release it and press it and release it. And that's actually not that hard to do. It's hard to sustain, but it's actually not that hard to feel. So that's something that I would like to touch on for people and get them curious about, wake up the curiosity so that hopefully we start exploring it more on our own.
That sounds fascinating. The breath touches those areas. I mean. Not physically, you breathe into your lungs move, but there's a sensory experience when you breathe that you can feel all the way down to the pelvic floor, all the way up to the base of your throat, even because we are, like I said, I [00:45:00] think I talked about this last time, we are physically a pressure container.
We use the breath in a way that can create pressure within the body. If you've ever lifted weights. One of the techniques that they use to get that initial surge of strength is to take a breath in and hold it and use that pressure to predict a certain level of strength. We have a really hard time helping people access that part of the body.
So these just sound like really powerful tools to do that. You can't lay a bunch of expectations on it. It's just something you're playing with. And most of the time. If you come at it from that angle, it's, you'll get some result pretty fast. So I wouldn't want anyone to feel like this is going to be like this big high pressure thing.
It's going to be fun. It's a playful experience. And it's really yoga is the practice of yoga is just inquiry. You're just asking questions [00:46:00] and seeing what you feel or seeing what you notice is really a simple way of saying it. That is helpful because I know even in the past I have been nervous to even go to a yoga class has, I just feel like everybody else knows what they're doing and I am so lost and I don't have the right yoga pants on or the right, I don't know what they're talking and I end up just, Shrinking or like doing exactly the opposite of what I'm there to do, which is to feel my body.
And I love what you just said about, it's an inquiry. I just that, and it's supposed to be fun and it's supposed to be, you know, playful and there's not a lot of expectation. I just, and it not for not, it's like, that's to me, what a really great, Session with the horse should be like, right? [00:47:00] It's cultivating that attitude within ourselves.
Yoga is a great tool to cultivate that attitude. If you're practicing it mindfully, it can also cultivate other attitudes. If you're practicing it in a way that isn't mindful. Right. So it's just the same with the horses. You can cultivate. You can pretty quickly cultivate what we would consider to be a horse that is naughty or violent or whatever it is, or dangerous, right?
Because you're working with that horse in a less than conscious way. Similar with dogs. You can make a dog mean, if you want to make a dog mean, by being mean. It's pretty simple. Well, you can say the same with interactions with people. You can get somebody on the muscle in a conversation pretty easily.
Yeah. The route you go. Yeah. But the aim of yoga is to get more and more in a place where you're unaffected by anything other than [00:48:00] the thoughts that you produce from your own being. We have the power to wield the energy of thought as well. Thoughts are energy.
Intuitive Energy Practices
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And that's actually something that We'll work with a little bit in the, some of the meditative tools that I will teach.
I call 'em intuitive energy practices, and it's just a series of tools that, of visualization or a feeling or depending on how the person's brain works, you might feel things, you might see things. You might just imagine things, but regardless of what you're doing or how silly it seems. You're working with your thought.
You're working with the energetic aspect of a thought. And because our thoughts are energy, when we think in a certain way, when we put our attention in a certain place, we're moving energy. People work with energy every single day. They're just not always conscious of [00:49:00] it. We're energetic beings. We're always using energy.
And if you don't want to call it energy, you can call it whatever you want, but there's a force within us that is more than just the physical body. And the thoughts are, your thought is a great example of that. You know, what is a thought other than energy? Moving. Circuits. Firing or electrons or whatever they are moving, getting feedback to the body, communicating with different areas of the body, organs, nervous system, whatever it is.
Yes. That's fascinating. Yeah. I read something, I forget the exact comparison, but it was. Like a quantum physics thing, there was the, how much space there is between things, like even an atomic level, like amount of matter in an atom is almost unrecognizable. If you took all the human beings on planet earth and took all of their physical matter, [00:50:00] it was very small.
The size of a sugar cube, I think was what they said, which is hard to even fathom. But when you just think about, like, we have these containers that are visible, I can see you through. This marvel of technology I'm sitting next to Victoria can put my hand on her leg. I can feel her, but to think about all this stuff we're talking about with energy, you know, and even where do we stop?
You know, we, is that interesting question? Yeah. I guess that gets back to the subtle bodies maybe even a little bit too, huh? Yeah, if you think about it in those terms, it's not so subtle, I guess. It's pretty big. Yes. Yeah. I'm excited for these exercises. What did you call it? Intuitive energy practices.
Essentially, you're just using your imagination to bring yourself in alignment with the flow of your energy. And one of the simplest things is finding the center of your head. And all you [00:51:00] have to do to do that is just imagine the line that starts between your eyebrows through the back of your head. And a line that starts over the top of one ear, through the head, over the top of the other ear.
And where those lines cross is the center of your head. And this is a huge one because when you find the center of your head, at least for me, I suddenly realized just how in the front of my body I am. Just think of that. And with horses, that's, that can be very confrontational. Ah. And when you're, especially like when you're working on the ground with them, Ah.
And you're trying to get a certain thing happening, a certain movement, and your energy's like this, in one place, the horse doesn't understand that. And I've been told years past, way before I experienced any of this by a teacher or trainer, you need to like, soften your eyes and you need to see the whole horse.
Use your peripheral vision. That was a big one. Well, going to the [00:52:00] center of your head opens you up to the entire, like, circumference, if you will, of the body. Like, you're experiencing everything behind you, beside you, and in front of you. And so you're acting from a more balanced and poised place. When you're working with the horse.
That's actually to me one of the most powerful tools and it's so simple but if you practice it, you'll begin to notice when you're not in the center of your head and That's when things get interesting When you're in the center of your head you have an awareness not only of what's in front of you, but what's beside you, what's behind you.
You're able to then act from a more balanced and poised place. And the more you practice going to the center of your head, the more likely you are to recognize when you're not in the center of your head. Yeah, and if you want to even go into the [00:53:00] example of, like, horses being a prey animal with their eyes on the sides of their head, and us humans being whatever we are, I'm not sure we really know all the time, but our eyes are more in front of us.
And it's a very different, not only perception, but it's a very different direction of energy. When you're looking at something straightforward through your eyes, it's a pretty strong, it's a pretty strong force. And a lot of times people say, don't look your horse in the eye. Have you heard that before? I don't necessarily fully agree with that, but it's because if you're not aware of how much energy you produce by doing that, you can get reactions.
Things can happen that aren't necessarily desirable because the horse picks up on that in a big way, because they're spatially more back here and hide themselves and they don't see out in front until much further away, whereas we're a little bit different. [00:54:00] Everything's right here in front of us and we don't see out to the sides until much further So, again, being in the center of your head just gives you an awareness of what's happening around you.
In a more powerful way. So then you're able to not only see things better, but feel things that are happening because you're attuned, in tune with what's happening around you. Yes. Yes. That's really cool. I never heard that described like that with the center of the head and it's great, especially in connection with the soft thighs and I never even thought about that forward heavy balance and how that alone, even if you're doing everything else right, if you're leaning forward.
Near the horse that would, because your energy is literally leaning towards them. Like as a predator, I would, my next action would be to continue moving forward. Yeah. And that's why it's so helpful for us when we're working with them on the ground to get some [00:55:00] distance between us. And that's usually the best place to start with somebody, I feel, because they can see what's going on whole horse.
It's very useful to work with the horse up close, like when we work the horses in hand more gymnastically, but you have to stay very aware of what's happening with the whole horse and that can sometimes be tricky. So I find that tool to be very helpful. I also find it to be incredibly helpful. In my writing, because it keeps me from going, falling forward all the time.
And it helps me to turn my body from a centered place versus just like trying to turn just the front of my body. Yeah. Gosh, I can't wait for you to get here. Yeah, that was a good teaser. Yeah. We're going to do a deep dive when you get there. I mean, this, that was just like, that's what we're going to, some of the stuff that we're going to do, but I can just tell that's going to be very rich.
Well, these are the missing pieces, you know, you're filling in the [00:56:00] missing pieces, uh, embodiment subject is kind of the meta version of the missing piece, but these are the tools we don't have that we need. These are really helpful. They feel tangible. I feel like you've connected some dots for me, which I didn't understand.
I got a lot to process and I think that I need to stop and process. Things that as a, as an experienced. Horseman that you work with, it's just giving you a different vantage point to begin to understand the power of those things. You can't always know the why, but if you can have an idea of the why, or a different perspective on what you're doing, it's really helpful.
This is another way of giving a different vantage point, a different place to look at this stuff from. Oh, totally. And I can just see where, even after this conversation, I'm excited to go work with my horses tomorrow morning, because the practice may be the same, but now I've got this [00:57:00] different, North Star now that I'm Yeah perspective to work from yes That will help and I don't know about you the deeper I get into this stuff And the more I work on it myself literally practice the more things That may be like a moment I may have felt years ago with a specific chorus and a very contextualized situation that for some reason is stuck with me, like it was like a quandary or something that I felt stuck about or didn't understand, but I've held onto it for some reason.
It'll be an aha, all of a sudden, you know, today it'll be like, Oh, that's what I. Didn't understand, but I knew was important, but I couldn't wrap my head around it. Does that make sense? It totally resonates completely. I do that all the time with the horses. I also do it in my yoga practice too, where suddenly I figure something out and I'm like, Oh, that's why that didn't feel right.
Or that's what that person was saying the whole time. That's [00:58:00] a big one. Yeah. I didn't have the awareness yet for it to really land the way that it just did. It's like, when I first started writing at the Barbies, it was, the whole big thing was like, turn your shoulders. Okay. Now, when I hear someone say, turn my shoulder, it means something very different to me than what it meant when I first started.
We can only really absorb what we're ready to absorb. But if you have tools to work with along the way, you can continuously go back to whether it's just working with horses every day or practicing yoga every day or both, you get the opportunity to have those ahas. Otherwise, they would just be like lost.
Yes. I love that. I love the levels too. Like the one thing, it's like the subtle bodies are like a fractal or it just keeps Replicating and maybe like in horsemanship, maybe Dominique is very far into the ocean or a little closer to shore, but there's like this level thing, but there's a thread that lies through it [00:59:00] all.
And I think that's really cool. It's something about like yoga, just as wisdom traditions of the East and horses, which embody naturalness is feel like they have these. It's such deep roots. They're not the same, but they're like going to the same place. They just seem so deep and just so needed. It's like, we talk a lot about the antidote to this and a lot of it really does like at the end of the day, embodiment was a new subject for me to like, as a word.
So it's been really fun to learn about. And every time we talk about it, it's like, this is what's missing. And everything like it's kind of all roads lead back to this at some point. And, and what a beautiful tradition yoga is to help us understand, implement, and experience that, like you said, in an experiential way.
And what a better guide or teacher than the horse to provide that mirror, that feedback of just such purity and honesty. Yeah, just to [01:00:00] go back to something you said about them being like deeply rooted. Yeah. And I think about this a lot because it seems to me like what some of these more potent things are expressing is just consciousness in general.
And like, I'll give you an example of, Dominique likes to talk about how, so one of the more powerful exercises that we use in classical writing is the shoulder in, it's a gymnastic movement that the horse does, that we do with the horse. And he talks about the history of that in these books. People that invented it and that it came, that knowledge came at the same time in different parts of the planet, but they were doing basically the same thing that's a waking up to something that's already there.
It's a recognition of consciousness that we all share. And yoga is that, like [01:01:00] anyone you talk to who's practiced or studied, even in an academic sense, yoga, it all goes back to the whole, like, we are one concept. We are one consciousness, experiencing it in a totally fractal way through lots of different lenses.
I love it. Good stuff. I'm really glad you're Coming up to Oregon, Jacob, that's going to be fantastic.
Final Thoughts and Gratitude
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Let's, let's, let's start reeling this in. Yeah, we'll land this plane. We're going to leave some stuff for the folks coming to the retreat. So thank you for visiting with us and sharing some of this ancient wisdom with us.
It's so powerful and it's so good and it's invigorating because it's inspiring. Yeah. Well, thank you, Jacob. Until next time, may the horse be with you. I love talking to you. I could talk to you for hours. I'm so excited you're [01:02:00] going to come hang out at my house with me. I'm so excited too. I feel like good spirits.
Yes. So thank you. I'm so grateful for you that you're like exist in this world and I get to talk to you. So thank you. Same. I'll just reflect it right back. There we go. Just a big old gratitude fest. You get some gratitude. Yes. That's awesome. I hope you enjoyed the show today. We'd love for you to join our free sub stack community for the herd is calling connect with us, engage in thoughtful discussions and access exclusive content. Click the link nearby to subscribe. It's so easy and totally free. We appreciate listening. And as always, may the horse be with [01:03:00] you.
