Kelsey John Podcast
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Introduction to Navajo Philosophy and Horses
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[00:00:00] in Navajo worldview and Navajo culture philosophy, it's basic knowledge. Like horses are healers, my understanding of what it means to be Navajo, but it's never like, just about the horses. Like horses, they're very sacred. They're very important to us, but they're also a part of a larger network of sacredness.
the way you are with your horse is the way that you are in your life. And if I'm off, in other places in my life, I can't be in good relation to my horse.
So I've gotta like fix that thing that's off in my life and in order to be really good relationally with my horse. And I think that's a process of decolonizing ~on, ~on all these different levels. because decolonizing is in some ways very personal. It's an interpersonal process, but it's also a structural process.
So we also have a responsibility to like change cultures and change structures and change like ways of thinking.
Welcome to The Herd is Calling Podcast
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Welcome to the herd is calling podcast. This is where we break free from conventional norms to explore the art, science, and [00:01:00] wonder of the horse human connection. I'm Josh Williams. And together with my wife, Victoria, we're your hosts. Our mission is to inspire. you to improve the lives of horses.
Subscribe to The Herd is calling on Substack for behind the scenes stories and unique content. Now let's get to the episode.
Welcome to The Herd is Calling podcast.
Meet Kelsey Dale John
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We're incredibly honored +to be joined today by Kelsey Dale. John, I'm gonna read her bio here and then we'll get started with some questions. Kelsey Dale. John is a member of the Navajo Nation. She's an assistant professor at the University of Arizona with a joint appointment in American Indian Studies and gender and women's studies.
She studies equine and human relationships in Native American communities with a focus on the social, cultural and historical narratives of horse human relations. She was a 2021 National [00:02:00] Academy of Education, Spencer Foundation, post-doctoral fellow. She completed her PhD and MS in cultural Foundations of Education at Syracuse University.
For her dissertation research, she worked in partnership with the Navajo Nation to document horse stories for the development of Navajo centered education and research. Kelsey is certified in equine facilitated learning through the Herd Institute. She's an enrolled member of the Navajo Nation, and in her spare time, she runs with her dogs and works with her horses.
All right, welcome Kelsey. Hi. Hi, Kelsey. Hello. let's just jump right in.
A Day in the Life with Horses
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Tell us about your horse life right now, these days. I know it's summer break. what's a typical day for you with horses? Yeah. So I am lucky enough to live with my horses, so they live with us. my family lives in southern Arizona, just south of Tucson, [00:03:00] about an hour.
we have a little bit of land here. So horses are kind of like there from the beginning. When I wake up in the morning, I usually like look out the window first thing and see how they're doing and what they're doing. ~Um, ~and then I'll have some coffee and go down and feed them. we use hay nets for our horses.
So I fill up their hay nets for the morning and then right now it's really. Hot. So we're doing a lot of fly stuff like masks and spray and those kind of things. Sometimes I'll have my coffee down there with the horses too in the corral. especially if it's like a cold morning. I just enjoy sitting out there and like sipping my coffee and watching them.
and I think every horse person loves the sound of like horses, chewing hay. It's just really nice . So I like to just listen to that. and then keep my little herding dogs from chasing them too much. It's usually an honest part of my morning. ~Um, ~and I work a lot from home, so I'll work from home.
throughout the day I was thinking about this, but I usually like to go out there and just like, hang out [00:04:00] with them. I'll take breaks sometimes and just walk down and just like, hang out in the crowd or I'll turn them out and like maybe sit outside on my porch and just watch them. So I observe them a lot, just to make sure that they're okay, but I also am like trying to learn more about them all the time.
So like, what are they doing? What are they like, you know, are they cranky today? Like are they getting along with each other today? We have three with us right now. ~Um, ~and so like what's the dynamic between all three of them? You know, all of those things. So I'm always watching them. and then typically during this time of year, it's really windy in the afternoon.
when the wind dies down at night, I like to go out and spend like maybe 20, 30 minutes working on different skills with them. So I guess you could call it training right now, a lot of what I'm working on is just skills for them for their health purposes. one of my horses, she's really needle shy and so she has to get her vaccines.
And so we have to work through that. [00:05:00] And I've found that the best way to help my horses if they're like scared of something or they can't, you know, they're not good with. like a health procedure is to just ease them into it with really short sessions every single day.
That's been helping a lot. We really helped our other horse,~ um,~ get through his, like issues with having farrier work done and his feet picked up. so yeah, I try to spend at least just like a really, and it's a low pressure for me too. sometimes we think we have to like spend hours and hours training our horses and I think you can just do little super low pressure, low key things every single day.
And that makes more of a difference than Being like, we're gonna stay out here till we get this, you know, under our belt. So that's helped me and I think it's also helped them too. So that's usually how we end. I typically feed three times a day and if I'm not feeding three times a day, I'll feed two times a day and they'll turn out in between.
~Um, ~so their turnout time is really important for us and for them just to make sure that they have that, like, autonomous time to [00:06:00] do whatever they want and move around as they please. yeah, that's pretty much ~my, ~my day with them. On the weekends I typically will ride, that's when I'll do a lot of riding.
~Um, ~and maybe like longer sessions or right now we're really practicing with trailers and being comfortable going for short rides. And so a lot of times, like my partner and I will just load up one of the horses and like drive them around for like 30 minutes and then come back and unload 'em. we do that a lot too.
we can be found just driving around with a horse in our trailer. That is so cool. No, that is,~ I,~ I'm always,~ um,~ Talking to our students and clients about doing exactly that. I was just thinking, oh, I should be doing that with our horses right now because they're all pretty green and,~ um,~ definitely need some confidence building,~ uh,~ with the trailer.
I'm just so glad you talked about that cuz ~that's, ~that's so good and so many of us need to do exactly that. Yeah. It's kind of funny. ~I know, ~I know in our conversation we're gonna go [00:07:00] down various rabbit holes and look for some conant threads and deeper meanings and connections that are shared amongst everybody, but one thing I think everybody can relate to is the struggle of trailering
So yeah, definitely. Yeah, my horse Bambi, oh, I've had so many ups and downs with her trailering and I think a lot of it was probably my fault. And then a lot of it too is just the general, like horses don't like trailers, right? It's completely like unnatural for them. It's scary. It's like everything that they don't like in a situation.
And so the more that you just are real with that, then the more you can be like very forgiving of like, okay, like I get it. This is like nothing that you like happening right now. So we have to go through it really slowly. ~Um, ~but yeah,~ I've,~ yes. Yes to. ~I, ~I feel like yes, to all the trailer situations.
yes. Yeah. The list is long and Oh, so [00:08:00] familiar . Can you explain your first knowing that you were drawn to horses? Yeah. So I actually don't, I don't have a first, and so I think the, this is because with my family and with,~ um,~ Navajo families in particular, the horse is so integrated into our culture and our life that like, there's never this like point of introduction that's really clear.
It's just like the horses are always there. So I can't think of a time when I like, became aware of horses or when I like, began to like them because they were always there to some extent. the closest thing I have is I, my mom told me a story of like, when I was a baby, very little that she put, she rides horses as well.
And so she put me. On horseback with her in her saddle and was just holding me. And she said that I was like so amused and was laughing [00:09:00] and having the best time ever and I wasn't scared or anything. And so I think that's, I don't remember that obviously cuz I was a baby. But I think that's just ~a, ~a good example of how both of my parents grew up, you know, with horses and it's a big part of both of their cultures.
And so it was just integrated into my life too. And so I can really just say that they were always there and they were always a major part of my ideas of family and relationship and just like being a person. I can't imagine a life without horses. And so, ~um, ~I think that's because they've always been present in some, what, some way, shape or form to our family's life.
Wow. Yeah. ~That, that's, ~that's so interesting. as your journey with horses progressed, what do you remember ~as, ~as ~the, ~the journey unfolded? Like what was that path like for you? ~Um, ~I have a lot of memories like when I was a kid, so I do remember I grew up in Oklahoma. and we grew up out in the country.
We had land out there [00:10:00] and horses and so I have a lot of really positive memories of just like being around horses and again, having them kind of always out there . So just being aware of their presence, I feel like, and having a really good association with that. And then I also have like really positive memories of as a family, caring for horses.
So, you know, I would go with my parents to feed our horses every day. Like I would watch my dad train our horses, you know, I helped my dad as much as you can help as a child, like build a barn and like build sheds and like ~kind of like ~watched my family, you know, build all of these horse facilities and would do things like go and get hay for them and play on the hay bales, like all kinds of stuff.
I remember riding horses when I was little. ~Um, ~I rode horses a lot, bare back as a kid, and just like bare back with a halter, which is like, you know, sometimes I still do that, but I definitely don't do it with the same amount of like, freedom of mind, [00:11:00] I did when I was a child. ~Um, ~but I did that a lot. I have a lot of memories too of riding.
I had a horse that, his name was Clyde and he was this like big,~ uh,~ quarter horse. His name was Clyde cuz he kind of looked like a Clydesdale. He was just like very thick and stocky. I have like, really fond memories of riding him and talking to him and just like having these, like, what I perceived as like full on conversations,~ um,~ with this horse.
And so yeah, just a lot of positive memories. And I think when I look back on that time, I realized that I actually was learning a lot during that time. I was learning essentially without it being explicit to me. I was learning how to like care for horses, how to handle them, how to feed them, you know, what to look out for, what's normal, what's not normal, how to read their body language.
All those things were happening in, you know, informally. because I was picking up on that from my parents. And then just from like being around them a [00:12:00] lot and just observing, which is part of the reason why I do that now. I just like watch, I'm like always watching them, like, what's going on? What's going on?
What, how are they acting? so I think that's a really valuable. I mean, it's a scientific tool too, right? Like people go observe horses for scientific study and I'm like, okay, I can just watch mine outside , you know? ~Yeah, ~yeah. Learning through relationship too is a little bit what I hear you saying.
It's definitely a very, like, native and Navajo form of education is like, you don't really like have someone sit you down and say, this is are the things you need to know, and like, now let's go do them. It's more like, we're just gonna go live our life.
And it's very like ~what, ~what you would call experiential learning. You just learn by experience. You learn by being put in the situations and you learn by watching other people and kind of being alongside them. ~Um, ~almost like the apprenticeship too type of model where you're just like watching and you're picking up [00:13:00] on things and eventually, you know, you start to try, you start to practice what you're seeing or you start to try like, ~what, ~what I've seen my dad do or my mom do with horses.
I think all of that was happening, you know, when I was ~a little, ~a little kid. Yeah, that's really neat. I know like some of Victoria's stories of being young and just sitting on a rock and watching horses in the pasture,~ we,~ we have some clients that said they used to just bring like their book, you know, and just sit under a tree and just read with the horses milling around.
And so much of that, I mean, obviously culturally is lost, but just within individual stories, like that's their fondest memories. But yet when you see, like if you go to a typical barn ~or, ~or environment,~ um,~ you see very little of that. You know, it's like you get your horse, you groom, you ride, you put your horse away, you leave, it's sort of become mechanized ~and, ~and that's, something we're really exploring a lot.
And ~I, ~I see that a lot with your work, obviously. ~And, ~and I just think it's really fascinating. Like Victoria mentioned the relational aspect, and you even mentioned the scientific [00:14:00] aspect,~ and,~ and I love that because it deepens that, that feeling. You know, sometimes when I hear science, I think, oh, you know, gosh, like get out the microscopes and piles of notes and all this stuff.
But really at the end of the day, like you said, it's just observation. ~It's just, ~it's just feeling and it's almost like a conversation, you know? And sometimes when you,~ um,~ I'll speak for myself if I have a conversation, sometimes I find myself thinking about what I'm gonna say. And then I realized I'm not really listening anymore, you know, and ~I, ~I heard some of that too, and what you said, just that being the observer, like really just listening, deep listening.
I had this, she passed away,~ um,~ a while ago, but her name was Debbie and she is the owner of ~the, ~the horse rescue that I adopted Bambi from. And I remember that she would really like, ~um, ~talk a lot about like, observation. And I think for her, because she was taking in and really helping with a lot of either traumatized horses or [00:15:00] Mustangs, ~that ~that was one of her biggest tools was like really to just like, be around.
That was a major part of ~the, ~the process, the relational process, because a lot of these horses were really scared, but she would say, like, spend, she would say, spend unassuming time with your horse. And so I think about that almost every day. Like how she said that to me is just like, just spend time where you don't need something from them.
You're just there. You're just out there. You know, maybe you're learning, maybe you're watching them, but you're not like needing them to do something for you. So I try to do that at least every day. I don't always, you know, I'm not always perfect with that, obviously, but I do, I think about her saying that a lot because,~ um,~ I do think that horses are positioned to like, do so much for us that it's really quite different to think how do I just be in relationship and not need something from this animal?
Yeah. I love that one. One of our [00:16:00] friends, his name's Jacob Homer, he's, we did a podcast with him too. He's a, an apprentice, at Barbie Farms down in Healdsburg, California. And he says his mantra for whenever he enters the horse's space, is, how can I help you today?
What can I do for you today? And I just love that. That's kind of stuck with me, too. And then you really can't figure out the answer to that unless you're able to take a step back and observe and notice and pay attention I love what you're saying about all that.
Yeah. No, I like that. I'm gonna think about that too. What can I do for you today?
The Journey with Bambi
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, I might be jumping ahead a little bit, ~but I, ~but I do, you've mentioned Bambi a couple times and ~mm-hmm. ~, would you share the story of how you and Bambi came together?
~Um, ~Yeah, Bambi's, famous now, nowadays. I was,~ uh,~ working on my dissertation with my community. I was living in northern New Mexico, in the Four Corners area. [00:17:00] And one of the things that like prompted me to where I met Bambi was that I was like doing research, but I wasn't really living out.
What I was researching about, so this kind of standard I hold myself to as an academic ~is, ~is that if I'm researching something or I'm saying something, or like putting some kind of like information or knowledge into the world that I like, hold myself to the standard of like, am I doing that in my actual life too?
So I felt really like off because I'm like, oh, I'm talking about horse relationships, but I'm not actually living my life with horses right now. So I'm like, well, I can't, you know, I was living in an apartment, I didn't have really access to horses. I could go home and visit my family's horses, but I could only do that sometimes.
I thought, well, you know, I actually hadn't even really heard of what a, like a rescue was. I didn't quite understand, I don't even know how I began to understand what that was, but I just remember Googling, you know, like any millennial does to find information. So I was [00:18:00] Googling and then I found that there was an equine rescue nearby, and I was like, cool.
Like I have some horse experience, like maybe I could be a volunteer here. I could probably do that and that would be a good way for me to feel like I was giving back to the community and doing something and not just talking about my research or just talking about horses. That just felt really weird to me.
So I ended up, you know, going to this rescue and it's called Four Corners Equine Rescue. And I remember, I believe the first day that I was there was the first day that I met Bambi, because I do remember the first time that she was introduced to me. So the owner,~ um, uh, ~would go around and ~kind of like, ~and I loved this too, she'd go around, like introduce all the horses to like whoever was new there.
And so she's like, this is ~so-and-so, ~you know, they're, they came from here, they like this, we do this with them. And so it was really fun. And that's kind of how I view horses is like, you know, you have to do introductions with them, like they're people, you know. So I was all about that, but I remember [00:19:00] her saying, this is Bambi.
~Um, ~and I just like, I just had like, all the feels for ba I don't know what it was. I don't know if we were like, meant to find each other or what, but I just remember being like, I, I like this. I like this horse. Like, I don't know what it is about her, but like, she's cool. I like her. Like I wanna hang out with her.
She is a Mustang too. And so I remember finding out like, oh, she's a Mustang. Like I love Mustangs. I grew up with Mustangs. ~Um, ~sometimes they get a bad reputation. They get a bad rap, either, like, the way that people handle them, people have this idea that they're like wild or they're like harder to handle than other horses.
I was just interested in all of that. I remember being like, Hey, would it be okay if I, you know, worked with her if I spent some time with her?
And she was like, sure. And I kind of feel like she was hesitant because,~ um,~ later on I found out that she was like one of the, you know, harder, quote unquote, harder to handle horses there. And she had been working with a professional trainer and [00:20:00] it didn't work out because I don't know anything about that person or that situation, but ~I would, ~I would venture to guess.
She's very stubborn if you give too much pressure,~ she,~ she like can't handle it. I think that's any horse. But something about her is she's like a barometer for like, your timing is bad and your pressure is bad and I'm done with you, like kind of a thing. So, ~um, ~Anyways, I think that's probably what happened.
I remember it took me like days before I could even approach her,~ um,~ because I was just wanted to be very aware that I wasn't forcing her until like, being in relationship with me. That didn't feel good to me. It didn't feel right to me. And so, ~um, ~I remember Debbie saying just do like approach and retreat essentially was what she was saying.
And what I really learned from her in that interaction was like, just let them have their space. It's okay. So it's really different than like pressure and release. Like it wasn't like, I'm gonna give you pressure until you do what I want. And then release it was like, I'm gonna approach you until I feel like you can't [00:21:00] handle it ~and, ~and you don't want it, and then I'm gonna like listen to you and back off.
And so that was like really revolutionary for me because I'm like, oh, okay. Like that feels good to me. That feels like an appropriate way to read the horse's body language and trust myself ~and, ~and trust that like I'm not, approaching this horse in a way that's uncomfortable to them. And at the same time I was also studying like land and animal contexts on the Navajo nation, that involves an implicates wild horses.
And so I'm like, I get it. the way that she ended up in the rescue. it's a violent process and it's a scary process for horses. And so I'm like, I totally understand why, you know, you don't want a human approaching you and why you're scared in this situation. So just having that broader context and like realizing, like maybe kind of being empathetic to her ~mm-hmm.~
in this situation. the long story short, that's how I met her. And so eventually I was able to like, approach her I just liked her [00:22:00] so much. Like we just, I don't know, we didn't really do that much. I feel like I just ~like sat, ~sat ~in a, ~in a round pin with her, like a lot and over time, you know, we just got to know each other.
And so she's a horse that I feel like I just know her like deeply. Like I feel like we know each other deeply cuz we have spent so much time together. but yeah, over time, like I have so many stories about her, but she just changed my life and she changed the way I view horses.
She changed the way I thought about training and riding and being in relationship and everything. So eventually when I was finished, I think I worked with her for about a year. ~Um, ~at the rescue. I'd just come and like, you know, hang out with her. We'd work on skills and then,~ um,~ whenever my research was ending in the community, I went back home to Colorado.
~Um, ~it was pretty clear that she was gonna like, be adopted by me. I think ~the, the, ~the owner of the rescue was like, yeah, obviously she's going with like, she loves you. Like, and so, ~um, ~we worked on Trailering, speaking back to Trailering. We had like worked on Trailering for like six months leading up to [00:23:00] that.
~Um, ~which was really good cuz that was one of the good, the better trailering experiences I think for her. just going really slow. But she ended up coming back with me to my parents' ranch , the rest was history. Now, you know, now we're bound together. forever. . Wow.
I love how, was it Deb or Deborah at four. Debbie? Yeah. Her Debbie. ~Mm-hmm. ~. Okay. I love how she introduced you to the horses versus the other way around. Yeah, it's more,~ um,~ equine centric in this case. I think that's kind of cool.
Reflections on Horsemanship and Training
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what you said about how people have this false belief system, and I was one of 'em you know, you hear a wild Mustang and I just picture this horse like rearing up and trying to jump out of ~a, ~a eight foot tall panel, ~and, ~and like, oh, you gotta be a strong handed cowboy to like get in there and muscle your way through.
And the truth is they're like naturally so relational.
Like any horse, , but back to some of the belief systems out there, like what's really popular in the Mustang world? Are these. Challenges like a three day weekend or a 30 day, then ride 'em across five states, kind of a thing.
Whereas what I heard you [00:24:00] say was you just like took your time. Like you spent six months working on trailering, you just hung out with your horse and got to know her. And we don't know what the trainer did before, but there were probably more traditional training aspects ~and, ~and they weren't having luck cuz the horse was like, yeah,~ I,~ I don't do this pressure stuff, you know, that's not my deal.
And you came in, removed the pressure and developed a relationship and yeah, so it's beautiful. I mean it's one of those things that's sounds really simple when you say it, but it's not easy and it's certainly not common practice in, the normal horse world out there, I guess the colonialized horse world,~ uh, ~
yeah, I think with Mustangs, I'm glad that you said there's a narrative around Mustangs, and I think that's one of the things that my work tries to disrupt is ~that ~that narrative that's very like, we're gonna break this horse. We're going to use like traditionally stereotypically masculine domineering qualities to achieve that.
And [00:25:00] to me, what always made me really uncomfortable about that is it's just like mirrors, like the relationship that schooling had to Native American people, which is like aimi to controlling like very violent. Like, we're gonna create these students and these individuals to be what we need them to be in American society instead of like trusting that they have their own systems of knowledge and systems of relating to the world.
And so I think, you know, as somebody who's Native American, I'm just very aware of that process. Like both as someone who's gone through schooling systems, but also somebody who has family members that are boarding school survivors. Like, this is something I like know intimately, like in my d n a,~ this,~ this experience of, you know, assimilation.
And so for me, I was thinking about that in my relationship to horses. ~Um, ~especially like the more I could articulate like assimilation and colonization in [00:26:00] schooling, the more I could articulate that, the more I was like, I. Oh, what does this, you know, what does this have to do with horsemanship? Like what, you know, that's an education system.
Like does it have the same values? Like how can we unpack that? ~Um, ~and I also think that with Mustangs, I, this is something that like, it was interesting.
The Importance of Observational Learning
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So I took a, like ~a, ~a course on equine behavior and I learned that most people who study equine behavior, their kind of bar of natural behavior is wild horses.
So they'll observe wild horses to try to understand what the most natural behavior of horses is, and then compare that to how we manage horses and domestic settings. And so I'm like, that's interesting because really the only people who live in close proximity to Mustangs are Native American people.
And perhaps some people who like work on public lands ranching and things like that would probably also live in close proximity. But like on major reservations, like [00:27:00] people live with wild horses essentially. Like you see them all the time. You watch them all the time. And so I think what gives native people a benefit then is that observational thing where it's like, I understand natural horse behavior because I see it all the time.
I'm around it all the time. And so I think ~that ~that was really beneficial to me because that's, you know, I didn't grow up on the reservation, but my dad did. And so his practice was like really like, Always measuring up to that natural behavior. I think one of the things that my parents instilled in me was like, like, give, if you're gonna have horses, you need to give them the most natural life that you can.
And you know, you can ride them, you can handle them, but you need to make sure that like their basic needs are met ~in, ~in a way that makes them, in a way that allows them to just be a horse, basically. Like, that's really important. And so that's something I really value, but I think ~that ~that comes from being [00:28:00] around free range horses and wild horses, and just having a kind of deep understanding of horse behavior and not having it filtered through, you know, ~uh, ~filtered through like some other kind of paradigm.
So I think having, seeing Mustangs in that capacity, it's, it was easier for me to be like, I'm not scared of this. Like, you know, I love the trope of like, oh, a Mustang, they're so wild. They're trying to jump over these like eight foot panels. My thing is like, why are there eight foot panels? Like, why is there panels in the first place?
Like, that's where I would think, you know, horses, nobody, like, not nobody, but like horses don't like confinement, right? Like, it's like the opposite of ~their, ~their whole thing. So that to me would be like, obviously this horse who's never dealt with confinement, like they're terrified, they're scared. That's what's happening.
And so, you know, how do we alleviate then the, what we have control over as humans? To then make sure that this horse isn't reacting out [00:29:00] of fear. ~Um, ~and they're not just being bad, they're scared. It's not natural to them. So I think just having that view of like, being critical of the human structures instead of just assuming that the human created structures are inherent or that they're good or that they're, they have to be this way.
Like it has to be this way. Yeah. I, oh gosh. That's so good. I remember Tabba was our Mustang that we had, we got her as part of one of those challenges. We were supposed to gentle her and then take her to this, show
It just became very clear as we were working with her ~that ~that would be pretty rude to do her . Like just as she was starting to like trust us and develop a relationship with us and feel safe with us to like have her go do this big scary, traumatizing thing and send her off to who knows where. So, so we ended up keeping her for a very long time.
~Mm-hmm. . Um, ~but what was so funny is, the organization that was [00:30:00] running the event, they sort of said you had to have this type of fencing and you have to ~this, ~this and that. And, that is what we noticed it. She was terrified in that confinement. like that in of itself created all this stress for her.
~Mm-hmm. ~. And she was young. She was a yearling. what's so interesting is, after a while we started to just kind of do what we thought we should do because,~ um,~ especially when we weren't like gonna follow their constraints of the program so much. And, we put her out in this big area with one of our old geldings and it was very short fencing.
Like the fencing around the perimeter was pretty silly. It barely kept horses in. And she would, after that, she would literally jump out of the fence to like come hang out with us when we were like in the yard. And like, that was just so funny. It was just like such a flip, such a paradigm shift for even like the lens to view this relationship that we had with [00:31:00] her.
~Mm. ~Yeah, that's a really good example. I feel like, that's so cool that you all realize like, this is not working. Like maybe we'll just put her in a bigger area with a friend. It's so simple. But I think the horsemanship structures that we are offered are so rigid that it feels uncomfortable to deviate from those, you know, from those predetermined ideas of like how to relate to a horse, how to train a horse, how to ride a horse, all these things.
And so, yeah, I think,~ and,~ and I think you get pushback too. Like I feel like sometimes, I don't know, maybe I just perceive this, but like, like I said, I just hang out a lot with my horses and so sometimes I wonder if people are like, what? Is she doing ? She's just sitting out there like, what is going on? You know?
And I think maybe even at the rescue, I think Debbie understood because she, you know, her and I were pretty similar on the way we thought about things, but I'm sure that some people were like, why is she just sitting here, like, listening to music with [00:32:00] this horse for like 30 minutes every day? But, you know, ~it was, ~it was good.
And we worked on things too, like she was really scared of lead ropes and so we, you know, we worked through that. She was scared of gates and like, she was scared of walking around. ~Um, ~the just like, through like corrals and stuff, like past other horses, like all these things. And so, you know, we worked through that over time, but it was really slow.
And I think when there's no pressure, that's an ideal situation. Like when there's some kind of pressure on the situation of like, we have to perform or we have to like, get this, or you need this healthcare or whatever. Like, that's just a terrible situation. But if you're just like, like meandering through life, it's, it can be a lot.
I think it's a lot easier. That's why I try to do that with that 15 minutes every day where I'm like, okay, you know, you've had your food, you're happy, the weather's nice, like we're just gonna do some things and then it's no big deal. so I think just sort of being [00:33:00] more chill about it has been my,~ um,~ My mantra, , I think it works.
I don't know to be determined. . No,~ I,~ I love it. ~I, ~I mean, if I had a dollar for every time somebody,~ um,~ unsolicited asked me if I was riding whatever young horse that I had, you know, in my care at that, like, are you writing him yet? Are you just, did you write him yet? Are you writing him? , first of all it's why none of your business?
Second of all, like, why is that the big question, you know? Yeah. Yeah. No, I think that's a tough one for me because, you know, I grew up writing and I try to think of what my relationship is to writing. That's something I've really been thinking through a lot lately is like, is this completely just for my own desire?
Is it just like for my own, like fun having, you know, why ~is it, ~is it because I wanna be in relationship to the horse? I think it's all of those things. ~Um, ~it's also something I would say is like cultural ~and, and, ~and [00:34:00] traditional, like as an Navajo person,~ um,~ And so, yeah, I think I, I think through that a lot.
I'm really grateful that I didn't grow up with a competitive horsemanship background. My dad did rodeo in his younger days, but we were not raised within that context or any other competitive context. And I'm actually really glad for that because I feel like the context we were raised in was either ~a, ~a shared working history with horses, so ranching or a trail riding type of relationship.
And those types of relationships can, of course, have their issues too. But I think what I gathered more so from it was that it was just more chill. Like, there was just not a lot of pressure and, you know, it was kind of more like enjoyable,~ um,~ rather than like, my identity or my livelihood is wrapped up in this horse's performance.
That's obviously a really high pressure situation. So I think [00:35:00] not having that has helped me be like, okay, like riding, you know, eh, like, ~it's, ~it's fun. It's cool. Like I like to do it. I wanna make sure my horse, I understands what they're doing and I can teach them properly if we are gonna do that. But I don't, it's not like the end all be all of my life.
Like we obviously have horses that.
Caring for Horses Throughout Their Lives
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You know, I've had horses that you can't ride or when your horse retires, like you can't ride them anymore. So, you know, if they're only riding to you, then like, are you gonna care for that horse once you can't ride them anymore? Like I think that's something that you, again, something I learned from my parents is like, you live, like your whole relationship is with that horse from like when they're young to when they're old and so you're caring for them the whole time.
And riding is just this tiny piece of that. Like, it's just ~a, ~a small part ~of, ~of the relationship to the horse. It's a beautiful thing, but it's also just a portion of it. Yeah. [00:36:00] Yeah. That's such a nice way to say that. ~We, ~we were just at ~um, ~a sanctuary the other day and the lady she cares more for older horses is more her focus.
And she said it's like, it always kind of boggles her mind. Like people will call just cuz their horse is getting old and they're like, and you take my horse cuz, you know, and some of it's, they just don't want to go through the grief of seeing their horse get old and eventually pass away. ~Um, ~but you know, so.
Yeah, I know, right? But what you were saying, it was great cuz it's just like, look at it like this whole arc, you know, rather than this is just all about. What I perceive as being the best part or the awesome part, or what I wanna see happen outta this relationship. it's more collaborative in that sense.
We like to do equine body work, I had started that more in the helping people that were in the competitive and performance worlds and stuff. ~And, ~and as we've evolved, as I've evolved my own understanding of things, one of the things that I think is so powerful about that, and you can call it [00:37:00] anything, you don't have to call it body work even, but is just that concept of going to the horse and instead of asking them, to do something for you, you're, you flip the table and it's like, okay, I'm gonna, try to help you now by, without asking anything.
~And, ~and I think it's like a healing relationship and it can,~ uh,~ exist between humans too. ~Um, ~we were just at the hospital the other day and it just,~ uh,~ just seeing the nurses there are so caring. They're just like, so loving. And I thought, wow, this just feels so good just to be around people who are taking care of other people, because that is so lost.
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~Mm-hmm. ~ and ~I, ~I wonder,~ uh,~ if it's not too soon, if we could.
Defining Animal Colonialism
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You know, ask you about this concept of animal colonialism that, that you've written so much about. Cuz I think it kind of speaks to all of this, just that different way of looking at things like, are we asking them, are we there to help them?
Are we just observing, you know, this relational concept? I would be awesome if you could define what that is for people who aren't familiar with it ~and, ~and maybe speak to a little bit of why it's so important.
Yeah, I mean, ~I, ~I like what you said about equine body work and I think,~ um,~ like you said, whatever you call it, just the idea of like going in and being, you [00:39:00] know, ~what can I, ~what can I do for you versus it just being a one-way relationship.
Like, what are you doing for me? So I think to me like that's really the, one of those major pieces of relationship and just like being relational or I think you could say like, what does it mean to be like a good relative? Like, because if you're, you know, asking, that's a question I feel like I hear a lot in indigenous studies, like scholarship and education is like, how do you be a good relative?
~Um, ~and how do ~you, ~you know, if you understand the horse to be, I. ~Um, ~a person, a sentient being, and if you understand that things are all related, then like you are a relative to the horse. So, you know, just like you would wanna be a good relative or a good human, like to other humans, like the same thing applies to horses.
Like it can't just be a one-directional exploitative relationship. I think exploitation's a really, it's a harsh word, but I do think that if we look at the history [00:40:00] between horses and humans, there's a lot of exploitation there. And so, you know, the more we just get comfortable ~with, ~with realizing that and trying to change it,~ the,~ the better.
~Um, ~
The Impact of Colonization on Native Relationships with Animals
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so with animal colonialism, I wrote that piece a while ago actually, but one of the things that was going through my mind,~ um, when I, ~when I wrote that was that I was really trying to understand the bigger picture about like, natives, but in particular Navajo people, our relationship to animals and land and how that's been affected by colonization.
There is a lot of research out there about how, you know, human native people have been affected by colonization. There's a lot of research about how land and our relationship to land has been affected through different practices and structures of colonization.
But there wasn't as much out there about how animals have been affected or how our relationship to animals have been affected. So that's where I really like. Kind of, that's where ~that, ~that paper began [00:41:00] was me thinking through,~ um,~ what existed ~in the, ~in the field of Native American studies at that time, which was a lot of folks were talking about how, you know, the land ~is a, ~is a person, the land is a being.
And so, ~um, ~and they were also talking about how native humans have been separated from lands, either physically or intellectually through assimilation practices. And so I really was thinking like, that's the same thing with our relationship to animals too. And in fact, they're all connected. And so that article is really trying to kind of dive into some of the practices and to really just join in with other scholars who are saying similar things ~in, ~in different ways.
And so the main point of me for that article was to point to how, my community was assimilated and colonized, our relationship to horses and other animals ~was, ~was a central part of that. So even to the point where, [00:42:00] as we were forced, like Navajos were forcibly removed from our homelands.
and part of that strategy to forcibly remove us was to kill all of our crops and to also slaughter our livestock. So that's the, probably the most gruesome example of the way that colonization has severed the ties between Navajos and our animals and between our lands. But I think it goes all the way to even just schooling practices.
Like if you're forcibly removing. Navajo people from their homelands and their families and their languages and their land and their animals, they're not gonna have that experiential learning, which is the way that we learn. So it's very similar. Like even though I didn't grow up on, on Navajo ho, like traditional land, Navajo ancestral land, I grew up with a very Navajo educational framework, which was like, you're just gonna be out here on the land with the animals, with your family, and you're gonna pick things up.
So if that time had been taken from me, [00:43:00] that would've been really, like, it would've affected my ability to relate to horses and to learn those things. And I think that's really what animal colonialism ~is, ~is that it's this idea that colonization doesn't just affect humans, right? It affects everyone. And in fact, it diss members the relationships that native people have built with more than humans.
And that's a purpose, like that's a purposeful thing, is severing those relationships is really about,~ um,~ having control over land and not, and animals and native people ultimately.
Horses as Teachers in Decolonization
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In your work, you talk about horses as teachers and knowers for decolonization. Can you speak more to that then?
Yeah, I mean, I think that like, I think that the way that I would say that is that horses, I think in order to have a good relationship with horses, it's kind of the opposite of colonization. Even though horses are so exploited through colonization, it's kind of this weird thing where [00:44:00] it's like, it depends on how you look at it, but I think from my standpoint as an Navajo person, like having a good relationship with your horse, one that's gentle and communicative and reciprocal is essentially like the opposite of what colonization is to me, which is like separation, assimilation, control, domination, and exploitation.
So I think like crafting that relationship to your horse, I think it obviously helps you in all areas of life. And it's never, I say this a lot and I,~ it's,~ it's kind of like my understanding of what it means to be Navajo, but it's never like, just about the horses. Like horses, they're very sacred. They're very important to us, but they're also like a part of a larger network of sacredness.
So like the way you are with a, with your horse is the way that you are in your life. ~Mm-hmm. ~. And so that's why it's so important to like live. With horses for me the way that I am in this relationship ~is, ~is the way that I wanna be all [00:45:00] the time. And if I'm off, like in other places in my life, I can't be in good relation to my horse.
So I've gotta like fix that thing that's off in my life and in order to be really good relationally with my horse. And I think that's a process of decolonizing ~on, ~on all these different levels. because decolonizing is in some ways very personal. It's an interpersonal process, but it's also a structural process.
And I think sometimes we think, oh, it's just personal. Like, you know, I have to do better or I have to do this or that. That's part of it, right? We're people in a structure, but it's also structural. And so we also have a responsibility to like change cultures and change structures and change like ways of thinking.
And so that work is sometimes. Easier because it's not as personal . And so, you know, it can be of course. And so like I see what you all are doing as a piece of that, right? Where you're like, how do we change horse culture? How do we change the way that we relate to horses? [00:46:00] And how do we turn away from these structures that maybe are exploitative or they are more dominant and controlling?
How do we be critical about that and create new ways of learning and new ways of being? And so I think, you know, those are pieces of like this process of what it means to think critically about, you know, our relationship to horses and to, you know, all non-human,~ um,~ beings.
Awesome . Wow. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. For explaining it like that. Yeah. I could listen to you talk all day. That's, that's wonderful. I told you . Yeah. I appreciate just your definition of colonialism. You used some words like control, exploitation, separation, and dominance. ~I, ~I think that's helpful.
Cause it's can be a vague word for people who haven't really thought about it, so just thinking about how that plays out in daily reality ~and, ~and how that affects,~ uh,,~ humans, indigenous cultures, animals, the whole, all of it. The structure as you said,~ and,~ and ~the, ~the paradox [00:47:00] there too.
There's so much paradox it was a Jungian quote, or like, ~uh, ~whenever you come to a place where you find paradox, you know, you're getting close to the truth cuz it's really,~ um,~ I guess that's symbolic of that.
it's non-dualism. Yeah. Non-dualism. Thank you. Yeah. ~Mm-hmm. ~, that whole concept is great. yeah.
Exploring Different Types of Intelligence
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But ~the, ~the teacher's part, and I know that's a big part of your work too, is studying that at such a high level and just this concept of like different types of intelligence. it's so common to be like, oh, you know, my stupid dog ~or, ~or the horse is doing this doesn't know any better.
You know, those kinds of things. Whereas we often talk and try to understand like, well, wow, what if there's like this whole other level of intelligence that we're not even thinking about? Cuz maybe it's this sort of frontal part of our brain that's very developed and can do mathematical equations and , high level thinking and stuff.
And we start thinking that like, that is the measure of intelligence. Whereas like a horse just being congruent between, its feelings and its [00:48:00] actions. ~Mm-hmm. ~ is like such another level of intelligence. I'd love to hear your thoughts on some of that too. Oh my gosh, I have so much to say about that.
And ~I like, ~I like the word congruence too. I remember when I first learned that word and I was like, oh, that's what that is. Like that whole thing. Like there's a word for that. ~Um, ~yeah. I think that for sure we privilege a certain type of intelligence as humans, right? Our human structures. We're very like in our head, like very analytical, very like I what I like to call, just like heady, like just in, and I'm like that because that's, I'm an academic, like, I'm like the epitome of that.
And so it is a completely different way of being to match your body to your intention or to your feeling. And it's ~really, ~really hard. It's really hard for me. Like I can say all these things intellectually, but it's very hard to go and then live this in relationship to being, it's not an easy thing.
And it's this, especially for me, not an easy thing as someone who spends a lot of time, like [00:49:00] being very analytical and being very much in my head ~as a, as a, ~as a job. So I think that like I definitely value horses for that. ~And, ~and I think that's something you don't wanna take away from them either. you have this way of being in the world that in some ways it's really funny how much they hold onto it.
As long as they've been in relationship to humans, they're still not gonna be like humans . And it's like, that's great. Like, ~uh, ~good for you for holding onto those things. Like, and not completely evolving. I mean that's really interesting to think about, right? Like not evolving so much that you are the same as humans is really interesting to me.
sometimes I was just having a conversation with a colleague that I work with,~ um,~ who's really wonderful and we were laughing because we were. We were kind of thinking, I wonder if our animals look at us and are like these poor beings, like they have such bad mental health. They can't integrate their emotions in their bodies.
They sit in front of screens all day, like, [00:50:00] you know, this human hasn't gotten up in five hours. Like, are they okay? You know, I'm like wondering if they're looking at us being like, what is wrong with you all? And I swear Bambi does that to me. Like I feel like she's so expressive and ~her, ~her vibes are just very like palpable.
Like she just, I feel like she's just like, I don't know if it's her B, it's partially her body language, but it's also just partially like ~her, ~her what the energy that she puts out into the world. But I feel like sometimes she's looking at me like, what are you doing? Like, this isn't even like, it's almost like judgmental.
I'm like, okay. But I think ~that ~that is absolutely, it's a form of intelligence. It's something that we, like severely lack as humans is this ability to be embodied. And so like, you know, I'm like, well, maybe, you know, maybe they have it figured out, right? Like more than us, and same with my dogs too, where I'm like, oh, like maybe you all have [00:51:00] it figured out and you're sitting here looking at us like, what are you all doing?
Like, why are you wasting time on things that don't matter? Yes. . Yes. ~Uh, ~wow. That was hilarious. I was cracking up and you were talking about the horses being like, are you okay? You haven't gotten up for five hours?
Our horses do the same thing. They're like, what is wrong? Can you just like, be clearer? Can you just say what you are trying to say, ? Yeah. and this is a big thing, I think in the equine assisted services world where if you are not congruent, like watching that, like the horses don't wanna have anything to do with you.
Yeah. So like, if you come in and you're like, the, I, this happens a lot with my horses, where like maybe I've just gotten off of like a work thing, and so I'm like really in my head and I'm like, haven't taken care of my body. And then I'm like stumbling, you know, down to the corral and they're just like, no, thank you.
Like, I just like turn away. I'm like, oh, okay. I guess I need to like fix my, fix myself before I [00:52:00] face like, yeah, it's really funny. And I like, like I think that's a place where maybe if you're just so training oriented, you're just like, oh, I'm just gonna catch this horse and like, do the thing and like, not pay attention.
But if you're really paying attention and they don't, you know, they're like going away from you, then you kind of have to ask yourself like, oh, like what vibe am I bringing right now that like, they're walking away from me. Versus other times when I feel like I am really congruent and I'm down there and I'm like, they wanna be my best friend.
I'm like not even trying to catch them or anything, and they're just like, hi, I love you. Like let me sit in your lap, , what's going on? So I think, you know, just paying attention to that can be a really good barometer of like where you are at. And also respecting ooh, maybe I'm like, maybe my vibe is really ugly right now.
Like, okay, like I guess I need to fix that before I try to have a relationship, you know, with you right now. Yeah. It's just really great information that they give [00:53:00] us if we are willing to take it in that way. It's just like, informative data for Yeah, like how we're showing up for sure. ~Mm-hmm. ~. Yeah. Yep.
It definitely is.
The Paradox of Native Education
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On the, kind of, on the paradox topic, I was just thinking about you and just from what we know about your life, how you grew up, ~ um,~ and here you are, a PhD, you're postdoctoral fellow. we've seen you talk on big stages on YouTube, like you have a very paradoxical life.
I'm just curious, like what drives you to do what you do? why are you so educated? Like what, what inspires you? What drives you? Oh my gosh, I don't, that's such a question. No, you're, that's a great question cuz I ask myself all the time. So I think it is a paradox, right? So being somebody who's native and being highly educated, like it is a paradox for a number of reasons.
The first and most obvious reason is that like education systems in this country, were not built for native people. They were basically built for the opposite, which [00:54:00] is to assimilate native people to change them or to educate them to be like a kind of labor force. and so this is a major part of my history.
My family's history is Navajo folks. And so I think that the interesting thing about systems of colonization is that individuals are always pushing back within those systems so that it's not like, oh, you know, natives went through this colonial system and therefore we're just like assimilated and oppressed.
That's a really bad way of looking at it because we're always pushing back on those systems in even as we are like wrapped up in them. And so I think that for me, my Navajo family is a family that has been really harmed by education, but it's also a family that has said there are pieces of this that we can use to give back to our community too.
And I think that it's always a negotiation, I don't wanna say this [00:55:00] in a way that makes it seem like. Oh, we'll just be cool with like a atory education because that's not how it is. It's more like where can you make change in your life and how are you positioned to make change?
So for me, I just come from a family that has really, for whatever reason, um, been like very serious about Western education and I come from,~ uh,~ parents who are highly educated. My dad is also a PhD. Um, he's a scientist. He's one of ~those, ~those microscope people that, that are, you know, that we're scared of
We don't know what they're saying, but they're brilliant. I think that some of the things that I've learned that even though this is not a space for us, we can still make space for ourselves within that. And it's also a really important project and everybody has their position in the world.
And I think just from my family's legacy of being highly educated and [00:56:00] also from growing up,~ um,~ essentially I grew up in a very like white space. It's a little easier for me to navigate that cuz I'm used to it. Then maybe somebody who hasn't navigated that before. And so I take that. Into consideration,~ uh,~ you know, as somebody who can be like an advocate perhaps to the non, native world about native people.
I obviously still, you know, wanna be in my community and do I do those things too? But I think there's a different position for everyone. So yes, it is a paradox. It's something I think about daily because a lot of times I'm like, why am I doing that? Like, I could just be like hanging out with horses, you know, like what, how, maybe I could just have a job where I just hang out with horses all the time.
That's like a little less in my head. But then I also think about how, you know, people who have been highly educated, who are native have also like, changed my life or they've created things that have changed the lives of other people. And so I think about that also as a responsibility. [00:57:00] Like, this was the hand that was dealt to me to have access to this.
And so, you know, I. It's never just for me, like, it's not for me to achieve a lot of things and like pat myself on the back. Like I'm positioned as a family member, as a relative, as a community member. And so I have some type of responsibility in that. And I think every native kid who's educated will say that.
Like, this isn't for me. This is for me to do something for my people or with my people. And it's a just a different way ~of, ~of being in the world. But that was very known to me ~as a small, ~as a small person. Like you don't just achieve things for yourself. It's for this collective purpose. And I think my dad is also a really good example of that, of someone who's highly educated and has done a lot of things for native people throughout his career and still continues to do that too.
So that's ~a, ~a piece of the paradox. But it is, right? Like ~I'm, ~I'm not somebody who is, like, I always say like, [00:58:00] I'm not a traditional expert knowledge. I'm not someone who's like, I'm not fluent in Navajo, I'm not like steeped in these like deep cultural traditions. Like I'm actually the Western education expert and a translating kind of expert.
But I'm not somebody who's like really, you know, the expert knowledge holders who are Navajo are not gonna,~ they,~ they wouldn't be in my position. They're gonna be out like living their life in a different way. ~, it's,~ it's incompatible to be both to a certain extent. Wow. That's so interesting. Yeah just reading your work I sense that feeling of responsibility,~ uh,~ just in the way you write and the way he talks.
So I, I see that, and that's interesting that your dad's ~a, a, ~a PhD too, you said? And he's the horse trainer, right? That used to do the rodeos and stuff when he was younger? Yeah. He did rodeo when he was younger, and,~ um,~ he trained all of our personal horses. Okay. That was interesting too.
It's interesting because I feel like he's not a professional horse trainer. Right. [00:59:00] He's somebody who like, and so it made me think of training differently because it's like, a lot of times it's like we send our horse off to these people to train our horses, and then we expect them to come back and be like, ready.
And so I think watching my dad be like, I'm going to train our own horses. It's a completely different paradigm, right? It's like, it's not just like, Hey, you send your horse off for 90 days and then they come back and you're like, ready to go. ~Um, ~it's like, no, ~the whole, ~the whole thing is a relationship, like ~from, ~from the time you acquire that horse in whatever way I.
To like, even once they're, they've learned a lot of things. Like, it's really interesting cuz I feel like if you watch someone who trains their own horses, everything ~is, ~is training, everything is learning. Everything is this relational process and the closeness and understanding that those two have is so different because you're not like expecting them to be [01:00:00] something and you're actually responsible for what they are.
right? ~Mm-hmm. ~, it's like, like blame somebody else. You have to be like, oh, my horse doesn't get in the trailer cuz I didn't teach them how to get in the trailer. Right? Like, I am responsible for that, or my horse is doing this because I didn't teach them to do that. Or they're doing this bad behavior because I accidentally taught them that.
So I think it makes you be more responsible. I don't think everyone ~can, ~can and should do it. Right? I think there's probably a, like a set of skills and knowledge that you need to have ~to, ~to do that ethically, but it definitely is a different paradigm of like, that's why it's so important for me that I train my own horses because I'm like, I wanna be responsible for this and not just have somebody else like, put this off on someone else.
Yeah. Yeah. That sense of responsibility. I, I heard that in your story too, just about, giving back you're creating bridges I think about that in different activism things like where there are Certain things that really upset us, you know, particularly like in the lgbtq ~uh, ~plus [01:01:00] world and with trans kids, like things that really make my blood boil. Like I would feel like punching somebody out sometimes.
But then you have to think like, okay, if I say this or if I confront somebody in this way, am I building a bridge or am I burning it? And what's ultimately gonna help the world more? I think generally speaking, the connection, the relationship happens more from building a bridge when possible.
I know that's this very tricky territory and it's full of its own, you know, mountain of paradox as well. Yeah, one of of my primary areas of education is really social justice. So I've thought about these things for so long and I think, I'm not even really like, like a sage knowledge person on this, but I just think as perhaps someone who has thought about this maybe more than the average person because of my studies.
~Um, ~I think that one thing that I try to hold onto is that, Shame is not a, it's not a great motivator for [01:02:00] people to change ~mm-hmm. ~so I think that's good for the horse world. It's good for the social justice world. I think, like you said, there's obviously a time when you need to be very, like, clear and upfront about what's happening.
You know, you need to name things, but I also think that like, I'm just really, like not, I'm not vibing with shame as a change tool for anyone. And so I think that I try really hard not to be somebody who uses that as a tool. ~Um, ~and there's this really famous quote, I feel like everybody quotes this, but it's really, I mean, there's a reason why,~ um,~ in the social justice world, I believe it was Audrey Lord said, like, you can't dismantle the master's house with the master's tools.
~Mm-hmm. ~. So I think like anything that to me is oppressive, like shame and dominance and exploitation, like those things, you can't use those for social justice. And so that can be really tricky sometimes because like, we don't know what to do,~ um,~ in order to like achieve, you know, ~this, ~this goal of justice or equity or, [01:03:00] you know, whatever.
And so I think ~that that's, that's, ~that's tricky. and I do think that building bridges when you can is really important. I think that building bridges yes,~ is,~ is really good.
And I think that different people are positioned differently to build different kinds of bridges. And so kind of like I said, like ~I'm, ~I'm comfortable speaking to an academic world. I'm comfortable speaking to like a non-native audience. I'm aware of what that brings with it. Like I'm aware of the responsibility that I have to do that.
But I maybe am more comfortable than somebody else doing that. And so ~I think ~I think about that a lot. I think that everyone has, like you said, like everyone has a role to play ~in, ~in social justice, and I think it's good to recognize what role other people play and to be real with yourself about like your positionality and what role you play in this work.
And I also just think that's a good part of being a good leader too, is like, you know, what are you, what are your strengths and what do you bring to the table? And then what do you just [01:04:00] need to let somebody else do? . Yes. Yes. Same with horses too, right? Like, I think there's times when I'm like, oh yeah, I can like do all of this.
And then it's like, no. Like I actually really need to ask for help when it comes to this. that's a really good, that's a lesson that I've definitely learned over the years of having my own horses.
The Healing Power of Horses
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You wrote, I ride horses to get away from academic theory, to get away from humans and to learn, reflect, grow, and plug into something much more important than my own narrowness.
can you say more about that? I love that as like a kind of a tie in what we're talking about, like. ~Um, ~we have these things we're trying to do as humans, but then there's this other way of going about doing some of those things. I'd just love to hear what, maybe you say a little bit more about that piece.
Yeah. I think,~ um,~ , I'm like, did I really [01:05:00] say that?
~um, ~yeah. Sometimes you forget everything that you write and put out into the world. So I think that it's, I think this goes back to the paradox of like being an educated native person because the education system in many ways is like very disembody because it's so focused on like thinking and it's so focused on, on like Headspace.
that is my way of saying that is it is saying like, it's actually really very dis embodying for native people to be good at education and at academia because the current structure is like all about thinking and it's not very embodied and it's not very relational.
And so like that's my way of naming like, This is the structure that I'm working within. And so a lot of times people like wonder, you know, ~why are, ~why are natives not as successful in educational institutions? It's not because they're not smart, it's [01:06:00] because the institution doesn't accommodate our way of thinking, which is interrelation.
And it's interdisciplinary and it's very embodied. So if you have a system that doesn't accommodate that, in order to be successful in that system, there's like a level of disembodiment that you have to do to be successful. So like I recognize that now about myself, and so I'm like, ooh, like I need to get away from that.
And so I think my relationship to horses, but also to other, like other things ~in, ~in a Navajo life that you're supposed to do. So like running is really big for me. And it's a traditional thing. It's a thing that you're supposed to do. And so like that's another piece of like, this is, you know, you could call it like self care or like mental health stuff, but it's just this practice of like, Being integrated and being embodied and understanding that the academic system as [01:07:00] it is currently ~is, ~is very dis embodying.
And it's not just academic systems. I'm sure it's like a lot of things in the world. Like there's a lot of things that disembody us. ~Um, ~even trauma too, right? Like trauma is very disembody and so, you know, how can we like create relations to like reembody ourselves, but also to be in better relation to every being around us too.
One of the things that really led Victoria and I, on the path that we're on, is just this question of like, what is it about horses? It's so good for people , And part of that was just, I think Victoria reflecting on her childhood and early experiences,~ um,~ you know, and some of that got morphed into the performance world where a lot of those dreams were kind of crushed.
~Um, ~if you don't mind me speaking for you, no. Don't yet killing it, right? and then kind of, then you come to a point like 20 years later and you're like, what the hell happened? And then you start questioning, well, what's it all about? And our friend Laura is an lcs w and she does,~ uh,~ work with [01:08:00] equine therapy and she has a program called Discovery with horses that she partnered with Victoria on, and they did some workshops and they were, female only, equine therapy workshops.
~Mm-hmm,~ we talked afterwards about some of the stuff that was happening and there's just incredible things were happening and it wa and that started the question of like, what is going on , you know, ~what is, ~what is this, what's it all about? And I know you've done a lot of work with equine therapy, you've done a lot of cultural work.
Equine Assisted Learning and Therapy
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You're,~ uh,~ certified by the Herd Institute. maybe if you could share some of what you've learned about that. Yeah. ~Um, ~so I think the first most important thing is that in Navajo worldview and Navajo culture philosophy, like horses are always positioned as that it's ~kind of like, um, ~basic knowledge.
Like basic knowledge. Like horses are healers,~ um,~ which can mean a lot of different things. So I think just from the get go, I always had that understanding like, oh yeah, like courses, like [01:09:00] they're here, you know, ~for, ~for that. in a more of like a reciprocal way. Like I think, I mean, we can talk about this, but I do think that ~I'm, ~I'm a little, like, I'm careful about the paradigm through which people use equine assisted services because I think it can be very exploitative as well just as exploitative as like com competition and labor.
And so, ~um, ~So that's an aside. But I think with horses and healing, like one of the stories I tell a lot, which you probably already heard me tell this story in like another talk or something, but when I was in graduate school and just kind of really struggling with like. Graduate school is a very isolating type of activity.
again, it's very dis embodying. You're very much in your head, you're thinking all the time. It's really easy to feel like you don't know what you're doing, especially as like a native person. So I was struggling with all those things, being far away from family, from home, from like ~the, the, ~the [01:10:00] lands and the places ~that were, ~that were familiar to me.
And so I, one of the things that really helped me was to, like, think about horses. So I think this is interesting because I wasn't even around them physically, but I was just like thinking about them and remembering,~ um,~ what it was like to be in relationship to horses. And I actually started just riding, writing it down, like kind of writing little stories or just like writing ~little, ~little snippets about like horse relationships.
And that practice was healing for me. ~Mm-hmm. ~. So I think that's interesting because a lot of times we're like, oh, we need to like, be like hands-on with the horse for them to like heal us. But I'm like actually like them. Just being in the world ~is, is a, ~is a part of healing too. Like, and I think I learned this from my dad because he said this really interesting thing.
He was being interviewed , and he said this thing where he was like, it's not just about like what they do for you. Like, and this is a paraphrase of this, but basically he was saying like, [01:11:00] they are. Healing because they're just there with you. Like you don't have to be like all up in their shit. For lack of better phrasing, like for them to be healing.
It's like them existing is. Beautiful. Like them existing is a healing thing, and them existing as their best selves. Like that's ~probably ~probably why I love to like live with horses, to share, share space, and share my life with horses because I'm like, you out there happy? Like makes me happy. And that's a part of that healing process is like, how can I facilitate a world where you live as a horse?
Because as a horse you are this like beautiful creature that like brings so much joy a aside from like what I can like get from you. You know? And that's probably maybe at the root of why people are so fascinated with wild horses too, is like, oh wow. Just like look at that. [01:12:00] Like ~they're, ~they're just there like being themselves.
Like, it just is such a, I think that's a really healing kind of thing. ~Um, ~and then of course, you know, there's also ~the, ~the pieces of like, we can talk about this embodiment thing, right? Like we talked a little bit about how. When we interface with a horse, like if you're paying attention, they give really clear feedback about what they're perceiving.
And so we don't often get that clear feedback from humans. , I think you would feel like a really, like, you'd maybe be considered mean if you gave that clear feedback as a human, which is funny, like, ~um, ~you know, if somebody tried to talk to you and you just like turned away from them and walked away, , that's like very rude.
But horses do it all the time. So I think that's a process of like getting that really clear feedback from horses. It, you know, that's really the, one of the main pieces of equine assisted services, and I say equine assisted services because I actually don't do equine therapy. I'm not a therapist. My, my doctorate is in [01:13:00] education.
And so I really stay within this like, learning paradigm. And, you know, there's some overlap in terms of philosophies, but I think the practice of equine assisted or equine facilitated learning is quite different than therapy because I operate differently in the world than a therapist. ~Um, ~I operate as like a learning scientist essentially.
And so I think, you know, like I've said earlier, we're always learning, we're always teaching and learning in all parts of our life. And one of the less explored. Spaces scientifically of learning is inter-species learning. And that's something that we all do all the time. Like we're always around other species and we're always learning from them and they're learning from us.
And so kind of being intentional about that is really how I approach it. And I think for sure that can be like something that's, you know, healing. But I'm also careful with that word too because I don't wanna be positioned as someone ~who, ~who's like doing therapeutic. Work,~ um,~ as a non [01:14:00] therapist . Yeah.
Yeah. I know how important the languages are. Like equine assisted services. Equine assisted learning, equine therapy. Yeah. There's so many,~ um,~ aspects. Well, equ, equine assisted psychotherapy. Equine, even equine therapy is too broad. Right? Yeah. Okay. Cause there's different therapeutic modalities and different,~ um,~ types of therapy.
Yeah, I was kind of cracking up cuz you were talking about how just healing they are. And ~we, ~we do a lot of clinics and workshops and stuff like that and we spend so much time trying to think of activities and of course ~we, ~we do our best to make it very holistic and experiential. but at the end of the day, it really is just being in that environment.
And,~ um,~ and it made me think of a story and I, I don't know exactly where it originated from. It was like from,~ uh,~ like a kid in India really wanted to become an archer. It's a long time ago, hundreds and hundreds of years ago. And archery was like one of the great arts of that civilization.
~And, ~and he was just a poor kid and [01:15:00] didn't have access to like the famous archer, you know, that taught the great archers. But there was a statue of the archer outside of the school. And the kid would just go and he would stand in front of the statue and just imagine himself being an archer. And he would just kind of was open and receptive to those vibes and that learning environment and he ended up becoming like a great archer in the end of it.
And part of that I think might speak a little bit just to the power of like intentionality and you know, just being open,
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I was curious like in your experience with learning inner species learning and that's fascinating when I heard that, I was just like, wow,~ that's,~ that's the antidote for this control exploitation, separation, dominance thing that's happening from the aspects of colonialism. how are you actively working with that?
Are you working with populations? Like ~how, ~how are you, what's that life look like for you right now? Yeah. Well, okay. A few things just to circle back to, like how y'all were saying, when you do clinics and you're like always trying to find different activities, it's so funny because part of the reason why I really love Veronica LA's work, who she's the founder of the Herd Institute, is like her book that she wrote about equine facilitated Psychotherapy and learning [01:17:00] is called, it's not About the Activity
And so one of the main points that she makes in that book is that, you know, the,~ it's,~ it's about the intention and the relationship essentially. And so you can, if you're flexible in your activity enough to let that relationship unfold, it's actually giving everyone in that situation, more agency, including the horse.
So I think sometimes, like in equine assisted activities, you know, if people get really activity oriented, then it's like, oh, you're not even like picking up on the information of what's happening. And sometimes the failed activity is like the thing, right? ~Mm-hmm. ~, it's like, oh, we didn't, you know, we weren't able to approach the horse or a really good,~ uh,~ example of this from my own experience where I was like functioning as a participant in an equine assisted learning,~ um,~ like, Session was, the activity was to halter the horse.
And so it was so strange cuz like immediately I was like, oh, like I just didn't wanna halter [01:18:00] the horse. And then I kind of tried like half-heartedly and then I was like, eh. And the horse just ran away from me. And so I was like, that's cool. Like you don't wanna be haltered, like it's fine. And that was essentially what the whole activity was like.
I did not accomplish the goal of haling the horse, but the group had this really like, great discussion about what, why that was. And for me, my own learning from that interaction in that moment was that, you know, I don't like a lot of predetermined horsemanship structures. And so like, it's okay for me to like push back on that.
Like to like get rid of that little voice in my head that's like, you have to Holter the horse, you know, or else you're bad at horse relationships.
Respecting Boundaries with Horses
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You know, like that little voice. Yeah. And so that was really good for me to name that and be like, it's okay. And what followed from that was after I respected that horse's boundary where they're like, I don't wanna be haltered.
Like I don't know you. Like who are you? ~Um, ~[01:19:00] Once I'm like, okay, I'm cool with that. Like, then this horse was like my best friend for the rest of the day, like, and I didn't even need a halter, I could just hang out with them. And so that was really formative for me ~to, ~to be like, it's okay for me to like, push back on the way that things are, like quote unquote, always done those structures and instead to privilege the relationship and the agency of the horse over accomplishing the goal.
Equine Assisted Services and Horse Agency
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And so I think that's a really cool like way of thinking about equine assisted services, where it's like, whatever's gonna happen will happen. And I think that's also the ultimate way of like giving the horse agency in that space to not be this tool that's performing to like get a human to their next level, but that they're, you're giving them like the autonomy to function in that space, in the way that they need and want to.
And ~that, ~that's kind of a tricky thing, I think. And yeah, so that's, I think I just like that you all are like, oh yeah, like what, you know, ~it's, ~it's not about [01:20:00] the activity as Dr. Lack would say. ~Mm-hmm. ~. And I've seen that happen a lot of times. Like I just did ~a, ~a little demo,~ a,~ a equine facilitator learning demo with a colleague of mine.
And I had this plan, like we were gonna do a Holter exercise and it just never happened because other things were happening. And what ended up happening I think, was a lot better because the horse was just at Liberty, like in the round pin, and his name is Major. And he was just like doing all kinds of hilarious stuff.
And he like had the group laughing and everyone was like interpreting his whole thing. And I'm like, oh, okay. This is so much better, you know, than what I had planned. So it was good for me to like, let go of that little expectation and realize that, you know, I guess he knew what needed to happen in that moment,~ um,~ because it, it worked for ~that, ~that moment.
~Um, ~but that was a tangent from your original question, which is, what am I doing with Equine Assisted Services? ~Uh, ~
Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion in Equine Services
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we just started a project at the University of Arizona. Where we're looking [01:21:00] at,~ um,~ how diversity, equity and inclusion intersects with equine assisted services training. ~Um, ~so for me, I work with folks who are like a little more integrated into human animal interaction and equine assisted services worlds and try to bring in my perspective as a social scientist about human social structures as they affect our relationship to animals.
So a big part of that work is like if you're looking at a human animal relationship, a horse human relationship, like absolutely we need animal scientists and, you know, equine behaviorists and, but we also need social scientists and human scientists because humans are half of the equation of that relationship.
And so I think my work is really trying to braid those things together and say like, how can we look at both sides of this relationship in an integrated way and understand that our human power structures affect our relationship to horses. and so we're exploring that through [01:22:00] some qualitative research.
I do like creation of some like different learning spaces with horses too, where,~ um,~ my goal is to integrate western scientific practices and, more like community-based traditional practices. So I do that work in my community for Navajo people.
~Um, ~it's really a space that like, is kind of just for Navajo people and it centers Navajo experts and that's a really big deal for us because, you know, because of the education system, we have been told how to relate to our land and how to relate to our families and our horses. And so it's really important that we determine that for ourself.
~Um, ~and that we rely on our own knowledge systems to do that. And so my experience is the best folks to do that are Navajo people who are, you know, immersed essentially in both worlds and can really be translators. So that's a space where we really lift up like,~ um,~ a lot of folks who are ~kind of up, ~up and coming, I would [01:23:00] say in the horse world.
And then also people who are really, have been in, in the horse world, Navajo horse world for a while. ~Um, ~and so we've got a lot of Navajo veterinary students. ~Um, ~and so that's a space where they get to really like, Kind of display their knowledge and connect back with their community and really braid together.
Like what does it mean to be a Navajo person, but also what does it mean to do, you know, VE veterinary science at the same time. So that's another project that I'm working on,~ um,~ currently. Yeah. ~Hmm. ~
Wow. Amazing.
Challenges and Solutions for Mustangs
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I'm curious, and this may be like really simplistic, there's a lot of mustangs out there and it's a huge issue on many different levels, and there's all these, therapeutic potentials,~ uh,~ and I go trying to get away from the therapy word.
~Um, ~equine assisted experiential learning opportunities, with horses. Do you see, helping the train these mustangs or work with these mustangs in these therapeutic applications and in a way that [01:24:00] would help both people and horse? Yeah, I mean, I think I'm like, so I think when we talk about mustangs and.
Like, one thing I try to challenge in my work and just like out there in the world, is how we're not framing mustangs as like a problem to be solved. ~Um, ~because I think a lot of people have said this too, really the problem is like the human structures and relationships we've created to land in animals that has created a bad situation for these beings.
And so, like the way that I explain this, it's actually very similar to how Native Americans were characterized like throughout history as like being in the way, right in the way of progress, like kind of in the way of settlement and just like a problem, like I'm sure you all have heard the phrase like the Indian problem,~ um,~ which is how natives were characterized by the US [01:25:00] government as just like something to be dealt with.
And so I think having that, you know, critical look ~at, ~at that, I think about how can we not view mustangs as this like, problem to be solved? Like they, they need a job. Like we need to assign them to a job, but instead to think about how,~ um,~ instead to think about how we can. Be more critical of the human structures that we've created that have made like the lives of Mustangs, not good
And in ~some, ~some ways they are good, right? Like, I'm not gonna say like, oh, all mustangs are like living their worst life. Like obviously some of them are, and some of them. And so, ~um, ~so yeah,~ I,~ I think that I'm careful to not offer like a grand over generalizing, sweeping solution because I think what's more I important for me is to think about why are we here?
~Why, ~why are we in this [01:26:00] situation in the first place? And that requires a lot of unpacking ~and it, ~and it really requires like a decolonial lens if you think about it. And I think that's one way that people have not looked at ~the, ~the free range horse. Like, quote unquote issue is to think about like, ~hmm, ~what's the history of like land ownership and forest removals and the creation of public lands?
Like, that's a very colonial history. And so, you know, to kind of take it back to that is really important. I feel like, as a first step of thinking about like, what do we do? ~Um, ~I also realize that there are like people who encounter free range horses daily. And that is like me offering these like historic, like critiques is not helping them in that moment.
So, you know, ~I, ~I do realize that too, right? Like, ~I, ~I have a rescued Mustang, like she was a wild horse. Like she, I adopted her because she was at a rescue. She was at a rescue because she got taken in from a [01:27:00] holding facility. Like, you know, I understand that history too. And so, or not that history, but that situation.
So yeah, I think maybe when I was first starting out, I would've been like, oh yeah, like, let's just train, like, let's just train the Mustangs and like, you know, that's the best solution. I think Rehoming is better than obviously like more violent solutions like culling or keeping in holding facilities or selling to slaughter houses like that.
That's obviously like Rehoming is better than that, but Rehoming. Is kind of rehoming. And training can also be violent too, right? Cause essentially you're, like you said with your Mustang, like that you had like, you realized like, this is not working for ~this, ~this being, and not everybody has the capacity to give a Mustang a life that's gonna be the least stressful for them because you have to have access to land essentially.
And having access [01:28:00] to land is a huge privilege. ~Um, ~and it's a huge economic privilege that not everybody has. And there's lots of reasons why people don't have access to land. You know? That's not just that they don't want to . Yeah.
The more I learn about some of these things, some of like quote unquote issues, the less answers that I have ~that I, ~that I know that, you know, a anything actually. So, yeah, it's really hard. Right? Because I think I do understand like, you know, it's a very polarized topic too, right? Where it's like, okay, either you're like four wild horses or you're against them, right?
And I think that's, Not helpful to me, right? I think it's like, no, we really need to understand why we're in this situation and we need to think about like what's the best for these beings and also what's the best for the land too. Like I think people are either positioned as like, oh, you want [01:29:00] range land and you care about the environment or you care about horses.
It's just a very polarizing situation and I think that it's not one where publicly people are really taking into account this complex land animal colonial history. And I think that's where perhaps native people have a bit of a different lens to offer. ~Um, ~because we've been dealing with this for so long, right?
We've been dealing with like our relationship to our livelihood and resources being severely restricted ~and, and, ~and also taken from us for basically since contact. And so, you know, that's a kind of an area where I think it is valuable to have that different perspective. ~Um, ~I do think too, like, you know, some solutions that have been offered that I think are useful are, I know that a lot of,~ um,~ The rhetoric has been changed around dogs, right?
Where it's like, Hey, let's not be so [01:30:00] into dog breeding. And like, let's think about like rescuing and rehoming dogs. I think that's a useful paradigm. ~I, ~I just read this somewhere in an article and I wish that I could cite it, but I can't remember who it was. ~Um, ~but they kind of said like, what if we took that paradigm?
We began to shift the culture around horses and thought more about like, how do we like not breed so heavily and rely so heavily on breeding and instead, you know, rely on like, creating homes for horses that actually need homes. , there's obviously like parts of that you wanna be careful with too.
I think there's a weird narrative around like, breaking mustangs that's kind of a, like you touched on it earlier, right? I think that's it's a little bit like, like savory vibes. Yeah. Right? Like, and so I think that's kind of, that's kind of gross. And so, you know, we don't wanna like perpetuate that so much, but to maybe think about it is interesting how people are more like, let's adopt a home that, or let's adopt a dog that needs a home versus buying from a breeder because we understand ~that ~that's not a good [01:31:00] practice.
So, you know, I'm sure, and it's interesting, I mean, most people don't use their horses for competition. , do they really need a, like a special breed of horse? I don't know. I'm not, I don't care so much about breeds because I wasn't raised with any specific, like breed, like attachment to breeds for any reason.
Like, you know, a horse is a horse. Like I understand there's genetic differences, right? But it's like, am I gonna like value a horse over another because of their breed? No. Yeah. No,~ I,~ I appreciate that reminder. Not to frame Mustangs as a problem too. ~Um, part ~part of my question was just like very practical ~and, ~and also just the paradox of breeding too.
I was just thinking, we literally have ~like a, ~a Phil Knight, the founder of Nike, founded breeding facility about 30 miles that direction. And the Warm Springs Indian reservation is right over here where there's just like ~a, ~a ton of mustangs hanging out. So ~we're, ~we're like kind of balanced ~between, ~[01:32:00] between those two things too.
But we've spent some time just in the last couple of weeks visiting some local sanctuaries and rescues, and they do a thing where they bring in,~ um,~ a collection of young. Baby Mustangs,~ uh,~ 12 or 14 or something. And they do a week long gentle in clinic. And basically, I think they try to find homes for them.
But there was a little bit of a gray area. Like sometimes they just, I have to send them back then at the end. So ~I, ~I guess my question about working with Mustangs in therapy, it's, I know it's simplistic and it's missing a lot of context,~ um,~ and probably a little idealist too, cause there's so many layers to everything involving with that.
But part of me is just like looking right around at some of the discussions and I mean, this one place has 45 horses. There's some beautiful horses there. And then we have other friends that are interested in equine assisted services and therapists [01:33:00] that are interested in equine assisted psychotherapy.
So I'm just seeing like all of these kind of moving pieces that are circling around each other, but not connecting. And part of our conversation is just like, I wonder if there, you know, seems like there would be some synergy there. I haven't really seen how to make it work either, but,~ um,~ it is interesting, you know, there's just all these things sort of floating around out there that seem like they need each other too.
Yeah. I mean, ~I, ~I can see what you're saying in terms of like, if you have like a one expectation for those mustangs and what they need to be,~ and,~ and that can't be provided for them. Like, then it's like there's no other option for them. They're going back, right. So it, or they're not, you know, they're going like, and I, who knows what that even means.
Right. Going back, like, is that a worse life for them? Like, ~I, ~I don't know. Right. Some Mustangs, like they're living their best lives. ~Mm-hmm. ~, others are not. I understand that. And so, ~um, ~yeah. I mean, I do think that regardless [01:34:00] of ~the, ~the discipline that a horse is kind of. Put into, there's probably always area for some, there's always like an area for something like beautiful and relational, and then there's probably also a danger for exploitation.
So I think that, and I even think that about like, because I know some people who do competitive work with their horses that have really beautiful relationships with their horses. I think it's possible, and I also think that it's possible for an equine assisted learning to be exploitative. Mm-hmm. . So I think, you know, just understanding that maybe it's not so much the discipline,~ uh,~ maybe certain disciplines it's easier to have a, like a person to person relationship, but there's also people who like defy, you know, the expectations of their discipline too.
So I can see what you're saying of like, you know, it's just another avenue perhaps ~for, ~for horses and humans to take care of each other, if that's the intention. ~Hmm. ~I love that. ~That's, ~that's what I was thinking. [01:35:00] Just, we can work together ~and, ~and have it be reciprocal and have it be mutually beneficial yeah, just like a whole different way of being in relationship with horses.
~Mm-hmm. ~ looking at them as our teachers and our, which is not a, you know, a whole new way, , you know, it's actually the way it has been done,~ um,~ for forever for. Or some folks particularly,~ um,~ you know, indigenous communities, yeah.
Personal Stories and Lessons from Horses
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And I think it's always a negotiation, right? So like, I think I could talk a lot about my personal story where like, I've had feedback where people are like, well, ~why, ~why would you keep Bambi?
Why wouldn't you just like, let her go again into the world? And I'm like, obviously,~ I,~ I think about that. I'm aware of that, right? And I think that like my decision to adopt Bambi was very much like relying on the fact that I could provide. A more natural life to her than she had in the rescue. And so that is a huge privilege [01:36:00] that I have access to land ownership and, you know, am able to provide that life and structure for her.
But I knew that her life was gonna be better, you know, originally at my family's ranch and then now with us on our land than it was gonna be at the rescue. And it's not any problem with the rescue, it's just that, you know, obviously like not every rescue has like access to tons and tons of land. Like not every horse person has access to tons of land, right?
So I think about that. And I also think that, I'm aware that some free range horses, like I said, they live their best life. Others are like subjected to not having enough resources, not having access to enough resources, and or getting rounded up and put in a different, worse situation. So kind of like weighing all of those options and thinking about how like ~we're, ~we're not gonna live ~in a, ~in a world that's like free of these human created structures.
So it's a negotiation, [01:37:00] like how we're moving through these things. And I think every context, every war is different. ~Um, ~and it was a good thing for Bambi and I to come together and to be able ~to, ~to do that together. But maybe there's other horses that's like, maybe their context is it's better for them to just continue to be wild horses.
And I, I think it's really, I. Like, I just try really hard not to over generalize. ~Um, ~you know, because it's very nuanced. One question that I would like to ask you is, have you figured out what your why is with courses? And if so, what,~ where,~ where are you right now with that question? It's because I'm Navajo. It's just like in our, it's in our, it's in our d n a. ~It's, ~it's who we are. ~It's, ~it's almost like it's non-negotiable.
It's just the way that it is. Like we are with horses like since the [01:38:00] beginning until the end. So it's kind of like how, I don't understand how I would be a Navajo person without,~ uh,~ without horses. ~Mm. ~And so what have, like Bambi, for example, and some of the other horses in your life, but what have the horses in your life taught you about yourself?
Yeah, so I think,~ um,~ one thing that Bambi has ~really, ~really taught me is how to better trust my own intuition and my own body. ~Um, ~and to kind of trust my gut feeling. That was really how I began to have a relationship with her, was just to feel like ~if, ~if I think that, I mean a big thing for me was like, if I think she's uncomfortable, I'm gonna trust that even though somebody else on the outside might be like, she's fine.
Just keep pushing through it. So just trusting ~that ~that gut feeling that I have about, you know, what's happening in our interaction right now has been really huge. And she's also taught me [01:39:00] that everything matters. So because she's,~ um,~ I don't know if she's more sensitive than other horses or if I've just let her be more sensitive.
I haven't like desensitized her out of that. she's taught me that everything you do matters. Like from the way that you like wake up in the morning to like what you're thinking in your head to the way you walk out the door, to the way you pick up that halter, the way you walk toward her. Like, everything your body is doing, it just matters.
And like, there's so many times when, you know, we've been communicating or working together where I'm like, I can't figure out like, what's what I'm doing wrong? Like, what's bothering you and. All I'm, I realize like I'm looking in the wrong place and it's like, whoa. Like you, okay. So everything I do matters.
~Um, ~and there's another time I do this often where I kind of, I just like ride her bare back and I don't,~ um,~ do anything . I just like, I wouldn't suggest this for e for everyone, right? [01:40:00] This is not something probably you wanna always do, but I can do this with her because I trust her. But I'll just ride her bare back and just like let basically like how I have a Holter on her, but I just like let the Holter like down on her neck and I don't do anything.
And I do this because I realize that like every tiny like shift that I make, every move I make, where I look, what I'm thinking, she's responding to that. So if you think of writing like that, it's like this extremely active, embodied exercise of awareness and also like physical capacity, right? You have to be like in good enough shape to be like, I can control my body, right?
I can not be shifting around. I can be like, still, I can stay on . Like I can be balanced. All of these things. So that's something, it's like everything you do matters down to what you're thinking, where you're looking like all of it. And that's a d a different way I think, of being in the world ~to, ~to walk through the world thinking like, oh, everything I [01:41:00] do has an effect.
~Um, ~so she's really taught me that. And then my gelding. Has taught me a lot. I feel like I didn't realize I was as reactive as I am until working with him. And then I'm like, Ooh, that's ugly. Like, you're very reactive. So like, let's work through that. ~Um, ~and he has taught me ~a lot, a lot, ~a lot of patience.
And also he's taught me that horses don't just act out, they act like in ways that we assign ~as ~as negative because there's something happening. so he's a horse that we like realized with the help of a trainer had a lameness issue. And so we didn't realize that till a while in, and that's something that I'm not super proud of, but I think it's really important to put out there because like, I feel like people ~and, ~and even myself, like labeled him as just like a problematic horse instead of realizing like, Hey, there's a health issue here.
And that's been [01:42:00] a really valuable lesson for us to learn because we are basically all the time now, you know, if our horse does something, we're like, okay, like we're gonna stop. Cuz there's a, there's something, there's a pain issue here. Like, and that's just not the norm at all for people. It's usually like, oh, your horse is being disrespectful or whatever, you know?
And it's like, ~no, no, no, no, ~no. Like, So that's something ~that I, ~that I don't do anymore. Like if we have bucking or we have biting or we have all these like, adverse behaviors, I'm like, okay, we're gonna stop. We're gonna think about, you know, what is in their most immediate environment that we can change.
Like, is there something else? You know, a lot of times when my mayor, when Bammy is acting like cranky, I'm like, oh, you need, it's time for a chiropractor adjustment. Like, thank you for telling me. Like, we'll do that for you and then, you know, we'll rest and then we'll continue on. And that is usually what it is, you know, with her.
But, so I think that's a big lesson to learn is like ~the, the, ~the horses are not doing these things that we label as bad or adverse because of some kind [01:43:00] of human weird reason. It's because they're trying to communicate something to us. And so, like to me, especially with bucking, I'm like, if your horse is bucking, like there's some ~pain, ~pain issue, they're not like, it takes a lot of energy for them to buck.
They're not just gonna do it because they don't like you . ~Mm-hmm. ~. So, you know, just thinking about all those things. And that's been a really hard lesson to learn. ~Um, ~because I think for me, I felt bad now that I realize, like, I didn't know this earlier on. ~Um, ~and so just being able ~to, ~to do that, he's taught me that and he's also taught me how to like embody boundaries.
Like ~to, ~to have big energy and not be. Reactive. Like, cuz he's a,~ he,~ he was a horse that he just likes to be close to people. So sometimes people are uncomfortable with that. And I would say I was uncomfortable with that for a while. And so I was like, how do I like, create boundaries with this horse? And, you know, I was able to learn like, you can embody, like [01:44:00] embody your boundaries.
You don't have to like have contact with the horse to like instill boundaries. And so that's, that was something I think that he also really taught me too. and to just like really assume the best about him in all situations. Yeah. So I don't know. I could go on and on, like you said, just ~any, ~any, I learn something every day from these beings, like
~Um, ~especially watching them interact too, like I think from Bambi, like ~I love, ~I love MAs and I love the way that they like handle geldings. I just think it's hilarious. And so I think I learned from that too. I'm like, wow, like you're so like, powerful like Bambi and you're just like, You're like organizing the space and you're like running the show, and like, how are you doing that?
Like, but I feel like I watch from that too, where I'm like, that's so interesting. Like, and everybody likes you too. Like, what is, like, what are you doing? , you know, as a woman in the world, I'm like watching her. I'm like, how can I be more like that? All these people, like all these people, all these horses, like they [01:45:00] respect you and like, but you're not being mean.
Like, I don't like what's happening here. So that's another thing too, is like watching their interactions. Just, I don't know,~ there's,~ there's so much to learn. Yeah. Master leadership there. ~Sounds like, ~sounds like she's a great leader. ~Mm-hmm. . Um, ~all right, well, final question, or ~did you have, ~did you have anything?
~I, ~I had one other thing. ~It's, ~it's a little, it's not like our last plane landing questions. . ~Um, ~but just while we have Kelsey on,~ I,~ I'd regret not asking her. I know, you know, you're working with Arizona State,~ you're,~ you're in the Herd Institute, university of Arizona. You Oh, thank you. University of Arizona.
~Um, uh, what, ~
The Importance of Equine Science and Social Structures
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what do you think the Equine assisted services field, what do you think it needs? You know, and that could be either framed of like, what does it need or what is wrong? That. Needs a course correction. Just ~what, ~what do you see that world needing?
And I'm asking a little bit selfishly because ~we, ~we do work with people that work in that field and we try to [01:46:00] help them be more mindful and we say do things with and for the horse. I'm just curious ~what, ~what you see is needed out there in, in the real world. Yeah. ~Um, ~I think two things.
So this is like also ~I, ~I owe this in part to my colleague cause we were just talking about this, Dr. Lean Networth. I think that everyone, including myself, can benefit from like just more general equine science and behavior knowledge. So like the more we can learn about like how to read body language so that we can recognize,~ um,~ you know, recognize signs and ~not, ~not misinterpret those, right.
So I think just,~ and,~ and some of that stuff is really simple to learn. Like, it's not a huge like, mystical scientific secret. It's like you just have to, you know, ~um, ~just teach people . ~Um, ~so I think just kind of general education around that. Making sure even just health stuff too. Like I feel like in ~the, ~the horse conference that I [01:47:00] organize, I try to make that information really accessible to like, You know, how do you recognize, you know, signs ~of, ~of,~ um,~ like sickness in your horse, right?
Or how do you like care for them? Just kind of really general like things I think is always really important to, to think about that. And then the other thing that I would say, is my entry point to this world is a really intentional look at human social structures and dynamics because they affect the way that we are in relationship to horses, whether we're doing, you know, a discipline, competitive discipline, or whether we're doing equine assisted services.
My entry point's obviously more focused on equine assisted services. But I think the work that looks at. Human social and power structures is ~really, ~really important because those things don't just disappear because we're walking into a barn or we're walking into a corral. And especially if you're doing work with humans, with horses, then those [01:48:00] dynamics are going to be very present.
~Um, ~I think it's no secret that the equine industry is very white centered industry, even though there are tons of folks of color and native folks and black folks who do, you know, different types of equine work. ~Um, ~those are not the people who are necessarily positioned as experts in that world. And so I think ~that ~that is because of human racial power dynamics.
And so those are obviously affecting, you know, our relationship to horses in really complex ways that I don't think we fully understand yet. ~Um, ~but I know that they are. Right. And so ~it's, it's, ~it's been more recent too that there have been kind of more honest conversations about racism in equine industries and also just about like how non-diverse a lot of these spaces are.
And so that I think is ~a big, ~a big piece of this. And even more down that path, I feel like ~a ~a, a gong , just like saying the same thing over, but [01:49:00] just saying like, recognizing that. Native people ~have, ~have always had essentially this like equine assisted learning relationship to horses. Like this is our framework and the education systems that we've been forced into have actually like forced us to unlearn that framework.
And so when western scientists like say they've discovered something new, it's quite offensive to native people because we're like, we actually already always knew that. And the system that you created basically separated us from that knowing and now you're using that same system to claim that you discovered that knowing.
So I think that's just one piece of like, you know, equine assisted services where perhaps that's the reason why it's not a diverse space is cuz of these like, complex dynamics of how knowledge comes to be and like the history of research and education and its interaction with folks of [01:50:00] color. ~Um, ~so those things, I believe they always matter whether you're in the academic world or whether you're creating a curriculum, you know, for folks to learn with their horses.
Like, I think you have to always be aware of ~those, ~those dynamics,~ um,~ because they're always, you know, gonna be lurking in there , but you can do things about it. It's not like, You know, I don't wanna sound ~too, ~too much of a downer. . Well, yeah, I think just having these conversations is one, one thing right off the bat.
So I really appreciate you sharing all that. Cause that yes, everything you just said just made so much sense and I don't think I've heard anybody talk about it that succinctly and that sort of like, yeah, this is it. Two things, this and this, and yeah. So I love that. So thank you for sharing that ~very, very, ~very much.
I appreciate it. Yeah, thanks.
Final Thoughts and Reflections
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If you could tell people three things, just three things that are the most important or most meaningful about horses for you, [01:51:00] what would they be? Oh, okay. I think I would say like they pretty much know everything ~, um,~ that's going on.
Like I. So I think that's that piece of like, sentience, right? That's, again, that's another one of those things that natives have always said, like, horses are sentient. And so as it's being understood now through Western science, you know what native communities are ~kind of like, ~okay. Like, yes. ~Um, ~so I think yes, they're, if you wanna say they're sentient, but my way of saying that is just like, they pretty much know everything that's happening and they probably know more than you think that they know, about what's going on in this space.
And yeah, just giving them the benefit of the doubt that ~they, ~they, that they do have all of these different pieces of personhood that we maybe don't assign to them. and acting toward them as if you believe that they do, even if it hasn't been proved by [01:52:00] science yet, right? So like, why do we need science to prove that they have, that they process emotions similar to horse, like to the humans.
Why can't we just act as if they do ? ~Um, ~so I think that's a, that's number one. Yes. I think the first one is definitely like the sentience, like personhood of horses.
~Um, ~I think also the second is I really value creating a relationship and or space with horses that, that allows them to exist as autonomously and in their natural state as much as possible. So I think like one thing that just really weirds me out is the way that some people manage horses in very unnatural conditions.
And so I think, you know, an important thing is like, horses need space that's like ~really, ~really basic, but like horses, they need space and they need social, like they need social outlets. ~Um, ~those are kind of two really basic things [01:53:00] that I've always privileged in my life is like, let's make sure they have a lot of space and autonomy and friends ~, um,~ and water and food
So just thinking about, you know, how can we, I think it's important for people to realize, like, those are really basic things. They may not be basic for you to access, but I believe it's very important. I've seen like even just with your story about your Mustang, right? Like putting them ~in a, in a, ~in a larger space with a friend was like, Made all of the difference.
~Um, ~so I think, you know, I've learned too by kind of looking at some of the science that a lot of the like behaviors that we don't love with horses are just because they're managed incorrectly. Like, and so let's just like do the kind of most basic thing. ~It's, ~it's very basic for people who perhaps grow up in that environment, but if you didn't grow up seeing horses very, like free range, then it would probably be new information.
~Um, ~and the third most important thing for about horses that I would share with [01:54:00] people,~ um,~ I think this matters, but like, they're very, like, they're very funny. So, so, you know, ~we, we, ~we can be very serious with them, but like, I really do think that they have some concept of like humor and just goofiness.
And so I think that there's just a lot of joy in, in viewing them through that lens. It creates a lot of joy to just be like, you know, just watching either how they interact with you or with other folks where it's like, oh my gosh, like this is. This is hilarious. Like, so I don't know if there's, like, it would be interesting if somewhere down the road, like science could tell us that like they, they do have a sense of humor
~Um, ~I think that they do. When I was doing my last equine assisted learning, equine facilitator learning demo, I was doing it with a, I was doing it with like a co-facilitator, and he was like, I'm a teacher and so I always take notes. And so him and I were standing in the round [01:55:00] pin and my dad's horse major was like at Liberty in the round pin.
And so he like pulled out his notes and he's like, you know, I always take notes. And like, major came over and literally looked over his shoulder and looked at the notes. , the whole crowd started laughing and I'm like, you can't make this stuff up. Like, you really can't, like, maybe like scientifically we would say like, oh, he's just looking at the paper cuz it's a different texture, whatever.
But I'm like, I think yes, perhaps that was part of it, but also if we really are going back to that number one about horse sentience, I think like also understanding that like they're not always just biologically operating Right. The same way that hu humans are not just like, oh, we're either hungry ~or, ~or ho hormone levels are increased or you know, like whatever.
We're angry. Like there's like, Let's assign like more complexity, I think, to their being in the world. ~And, ~and part of that is definitely like humor. It's just like fun [01:56:00] and they're funny and they bring so much joy,~ um,~ you know, ~to ~to, to living with them. It's just fun. Like I laugh at the, their interactions all the time.
God, that's so good. Yeah, I totally agree. My horses are always cracking me up and they're just, they're such smart asses. You could say uncanny, but it's not because it's just who they are. So, yeah. ~Mm-hmm. ~, that's a good one. ~That ~, that's a good one. Yeah. Okay. This has been so cool.
the fan girl and me is feeling very satiated, so thank you,~ uh,~ very much Kelsey. I just, I can't wait to sort of just process this conversation and then go back and now I can listen to it and ~um, ~probably reach out with more questions. ~Um, ~thank you for your time. Yeah. Thanks. This has been really fun.
I mean, I love talking about horses, so, you know, obviously you all do too, which is why Yeah. , why we're all here. ~It's, ~it's fun. Yeah. Yeah, and if you [01:57:00] find yourself out this way in Oregon, we'd love to have you stop by, so let's just stay in touch. Yeah, I know. I really wanna come out sometime because my husband used to work kind of in that area, and so he's always been like, we should go up there.
Like, it's really cool. So yeah, we would love to come visit. I'd love to meet your horses as well. ~Mm-hmm. ~. Yeah. Silly things they do . Yep. Yep. Yeah. And yeah, totally , there's a spot for you guys to crash . Yeah. Anytime. Open door. Yes. Yes.
Where if You'all are ever in southern Arizona,~ please,~ please come by. We've got a whole, we've got a whole crew here, . So dogs and horses. Sounds good. Sounds entertaining. Sounds right up our alley. So, yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much,~ uh,~ for your time. Thank you for sharing so much. I know we're gonna listen to this.
You said every, it's kinda like every paragraph or subject you said so much. So I'm excited to go back and listen to it. ~I'm, ~I'm like a slow talking country person, so it's gonna probably have to listen to it like five times [01:58:00] to get everything you said, . But I really appreciate you. I appreciate the work you're doing and if there's anything we could ever do to support you or just a phone call away, and,~ uh,~ and I hope we do get to,~ uh,~ host you here or visit you there someday too.
So thank you so much. Yeah, thank you all. It's been really fun.
I hope you enjoyed the show today. We'd love for you to join our free sub stack community for the herd is calling connect with us, engage in thoughtful discussions and access exclusive content. Click the link nearby to subscribe. It's so easy and totally free. We appreciate listening. And as always, may the horse be with [01:59:00] you.
