Melissa PT pod 1
===
[00:00:00]
Introduction: The Healing Power of Horses
---
I know myself being a trauma survivor, Horses were the first, one of the first things that I ever connected with that I could safely connect with.
and that gave me the courage to then feel like, okay, I'm gonna try to connect with this person now. And taking it a little bit further and taking it a little bit further, I always need my horses behind me. Because they are still my connection. They are what allows me to feel safe enough to go out and into the world But horses provide a safe connection. And for those who've never felt it, whatever happened in their childhood or maybe they had it and they lost it, that safe connection is always available with the horses. You just have to surrender. ~Um, ~and that is where the trauma informed work with horses, I mean it's so beneficial in so many different ways.
Welcome to The Herd is Calling Podcast
---
Welcome to the herd is calling podcast. This is where we break free from conventional norms to explore the art, science, and wonder of the horse human connection. I'm Josh Williams. And together with my wife, Victoria, [00:01:00] we're your hosts. Our mission is to inspire. you to improve the lives of horses.
Subscribe to The Herd is calling on Substack for behind the scenes stories and unique content. Now let's get to the episode.
Welcome to the Herd is Calling podcast.
Meet Our Special Guest: Melissa Jean Jars
---
Today we have a very special guest . we have Melissa Jean Jars with us. She's an mss, p t and an p c s. Melissa is a board certified hippotherapy clinical specialist and equine specialist with PATH and al, as well as a trauma-informed stretch practitioner.
And I know that's the very short list of all things Melissa does. I had the pleasure of talking to Melissa about a week ago we had a wonderful discussion. I feel like Melissa and us were just riding this similar wave where we're trying to explore the healing potential of horses, and I just really appreciate you joining us [00:02:00] today and you're taking some time in between clients right now at your job.
thank you for joining us and welcome to the podcast.
Well, thank you so much for having me. I agree. Our paths are completely just going on the same trajectory, and it's just very amazing. Yeah, it's beautiful. It's beautiful sharing this stuff. We, you know, as we discussed too, we really believe in the power of collaboration and sharing ideas and that, you know, we're really just get exponentially stronger when we work together, when these things.
Yeah. And something you said that really touched me was you talked about your big goal of healing horsemanship, and by that you said having a program that you know is very healing for people, but is also healing for the horse. Yeah. And that was one of the things I was like, whoa, we're plugged into the same universal frequency here, cuz Victoria and I have spent a lot of time.
Trying to understand what we're [00:03:00] trying to do and put language to it, which is its own challenge. And one of the things that we come up with was, you know, with the horse and for the horse. Mm-hmm. . Yep. And part of that is because that is more healing for people when you do it that way. And of course more healing for the horse.
And I know you had this incredible advocacy work that you did in the American Hippotherapy Association, which was very inspiring from that vision.
Melissa's Journey with Horses and Hippotherapy
---
So I was hoping maybe you could tell us a little bit about your background with your horse and the American Hippotherapy Association is how you ever even came up with this idea of healing horsemanship.
Yeah, it's a great question. and really, you know, I had always been drawn towards horses, right? And you guys have probably heard that a million times. Of just people who are drawn to horses. I didn't grow up riding. I didn't, there was no formal lessons. my parents have a small summer cottage on an Indian reservation off Lake Erie.
I would get to go on trail rides there on some of the horses that were [00:04:00] around. Just spend time with those horses. And that was it for my formal riding. but I just knew I couldn't get enough of the horses. fast forward to PT school. ~Um, ~I really thought I would just do sports medicine,~ um,~ until I heard about hippotherapy and it was very much just kind of making all of my worlds combined, right?
I've always loved being of service to people and helping people. ~Um, ~and I've always been drawn to animals. So when I heard about Hippotherapy, I was like, I need to check this out. ~Uh, ~and so I applied for an internship,~ um,~ and that was in 2005 and I've never looked back. ~Uh, ~you know, that was at a farm called Special Strides in Monroe, New Jersey, and they are doing some of the most incredible work.
And again, everything that I've kind of. Learned and encompassed was very much ingrained in me. There, the horses, there are truly the equine partners. ~Uh, ~and you feel the difference, right? Those horses [00:05:00] live on that property for their entire life. When they are retired, they're still out to pasture with their buddies that are still working.
and that makes a difference.
The Magic of Equine Movement and Connection
---
It makes such a difference cuz now you have these amazing horses that feel safe and connected and heard, and now we're gonna partner them with the special needs community who is missing all of those things. They don't feel heard, they don't feel safe, and they don't feel connected.
Hmm. So we're giving 'em, we're really in training that nervous system from that horse, which is so connected and safe with a participant that doesn't feel that well. And that's, that's where the magic really happens. Yes. The equine movement is astounding the way that it mimics human gait, right? So the horse's pelvis, the human's pelvis, they mimic each other.
Beautifully. And if you pair them up accordingly, you can really get some amazing results for your clients. those who are non-ambulatory can become ambulatory much quicker. But not even just the ambulation, just the functional of upright [00:06:00] sitting, the respiration, the digestion. We're really looking at the whole body with these participants.
And the horse's movement gets all of that going. it's pretty cool when you put it all together, but that entrainment of a safe, connected, nervous system with that, that doesn't feel safe and connected really where the magic lies. ~Um, ~and I had been searching for that my whole career, trying to figure out what that was.
You know, when we would talk about it at conferences and what's this magic thing? And people would get very upset because, you know, in the medical community, nothing is magic, right? ~Um, ~we need it like black and white here, people, nothing is magical. But it was magic, right? So then I just kept searching and searching and I started learning more and more about the horses, their sensory systems and what the world they're perceiving is.
and then I started finding out more about the cardiac coherence that happens, and I'm like, this is it. It's the entrainment. This is the magic that's happening.
Advocacy and Challenges in Hippotherapy
---
So with the American Hippotherapy Association right [00:07:00] now, they're the only association that medically partners with horses that still calls the horse a tool.
~Um, ~and that is something that I personally just don't necessarily, it doesn't jive with my personal mission, especially after everything that I have seen since 2005. so for a while I had some pushback because I didn't want to use the word tool. However, I had a amazing conversation with the new president of the American NPO Therapy Association and I said, listen, these are the reasons why I can't call it a tool.
Like, look at the sensory systems, look at everything that's happening. and she was just like, Melissa, I get it. I totally get it. ~Um, ~and maybe we can do like a lunch and learn where you can speak about this maybe at conference to help everybody understand these other points, which was such a turnaround from the pushback that I had gotten from the previous years.
But again, I, I understand where they're coming from. It's a very medical model. ~Um, ~we're dealing with insurance companies, insurance companies. This is still a little esoteric for some of them. Even though we have [00:08:00] research on it,~ um,~ we need more, right? but the fact that we have it and it's tangible, I think needs to be represented more.
that's where I've kind of come from. And because of that, like that big picture, that healing horsemanship, you know, we can help heal people with horses. I know that. I've seen it. I, I've been healed as far as I've come right on my journey by the horses. ~Um, ~
Healing Horsemanship: A New Perspective
---
we can also heal horsemanship because, and I know you guys have seen some of the things that happen in horsemanship, right?
these old traditions of the old way of doing things. ~Um, ~and we're just gonna do that and get it done, and that horse is gonna listen. And that doesn't come from a. A place that would feel good. And I know I've absolutely fallen into that category of believing that I needed to be this dominant leader for a horse.
But when you're that dominant leader for a horse, it doesn't feel good. Like if you actually check in with yourself, it feels pretty crummy. You're like, oh [00:09:00] gosh. Like it, it just doesn't feel good cuz you're not connecting. You're actually using fear and sometimes pain to get what you want. So I really truly believe that as we're healing people,~ um,~ we can heal horsemanship at the same time.
that's the big picture, that's the healing horsemanship in an umbrella. where we start looking at it from a horse's perspective. It's gonna heal the people and the horses, and then we just bring it together.
Wow. In our,~ um,~ in our Zoom coaching calls, we do jazz hands when people say stuff that we love.
That whole time you're talking, I was just thinking jazz hands the whole time. Everything. Everything. Yes. All of it. Yeah.
I know you guys totally get it. I know you do and so that's, yeah, that's the big vision. How, how to get there. I'm not really sure. That's the mission.
Yeah. Just even putting words to it, I think is a great start.
Talking about it more.
The Vulnerability and Growth in Horsemanship
---
I think for me, I remember the first time we held a [00:10:00] workshop in which this was the container, this different style of horsemanship. Where the intention was to really have the humans in the workshop go within, in order to figure out how to better relate to the horses in their lives and how to improve whatever it was their goals were.
And they were very horsemanship centered goals. This first workshop was all, my regular horsemanship students. so we created this workshop where, The whole first part of the first day was gonna be a lot of introspective work, a lot of personal work, a lot of circle and processing.
And we created this container and we created these journaling prompts and these discussion, prompts. And I got so scared the night before I was freaking out. I was being very mean to Josh . [00:11:00] I was like, why are you making me do this? Everybody's gonna hate this because there was so much vulnerability and like also a shift in.
the perspective that we were gonna take and the actual intention. And, I was so afraid. I just got really, really worried. it ended up being like one of the most magical weekends that we've experienced.
Oh, I'm so glad. It is. You're absolutely, it is so vulnerable. So vulnerable. I feel vulnerable every time I head out into the paddock for a course or a class or to lead a group.
~Um, ~there is a huge vulnerability component for all of that, and I don't think people talk about that enough, Victoria, because people think that, That it's just comes easy to us to just come out and, and do this. And it is not easy at all. ~Uh, ~there are moments of self-doubt going on in the head all the time, and all it takes is one person and a group [00:12:00] to kinda look at you a little strange, and then even more, and then you're like, oh gosh, was I even saying words you like, it's there, is there, there is a very big vulnerable component, which is why I just like, I love.
You guys, and I love others out there who are just putting their voice out there, and doing it. And even though we are afraid and we feel that fear and that vulnerability, we're still pushing forward. ~Um, ~because I think we all have that mission of we know we can help people and we can do it with horses, but we're not doing it at the sacrifice of the horse.
Yes. And that is like the mission forward. We are not here rotating through horses and selling them off left and right when they no longer are working for us. You know, we are finding ways to partner with horses and meeting them where they are, to still help people because they're all valuable, just like people are.
so I just, I love that and I, I think that that vulnerability needs to be spoken about more [00:13:00] so.
Yeah, I couldn't agree more. You know, Bri Brown talks about the vulnerability hangovers too. . , yes. I love that. . Like, what did I just put myself out there to do? But,~ uh,~ but it's gross too. I mean, that's, that's also I think why we're drawn to this, this work is it also is.
Pushing us to grow as well. And that's, that's kind of amazing.
Yeah. Cuz every time we go out there and we put ourselves out there and we see what happens, we are growing. Right. It it, it's not a comfortable place, which we all know growth is not a comfortable place. ~Um, ~especially in, you know, when we talk about horsemanship and we look around to see,~ uh,~ what other people in society might be doing.
And we're not following most of that model, if much at all. Right. And so now you're kind of going your own, our own paths. but being open enough to speak about it, and being open enough to share that experience and say, [00:14:00] Hey, there is a different way. ~Um, ~let's talk about it, in a discussion.
Right. We're. You know, I'm never gonna say, so what somebody is doing is completely wrong unless it's coming at the detriment of one of these, you know, animals or people. But I do think that discussions are, are needed for that. Right?
Yeah. Yeah so I really wanna recognize you for your work with a h a too, to get those conversations going. Like you, you kind of glazed over some of the stuff we had talked about in our first talk where you actually said you had almost, you know, lost your license over this concept of just changing the word of tool.
Yeah. Not my license, thank God. Not my license, but yeah, no, they were gonna take my membership away. Yeah, there was, there was meetings about that. ~Um, ~and of course it's. You know, I've worked really hard, and I've been a member for a really long time. ~Um, ~and so the, the fact that that was even a discussion being had, really, really gutted me.
This was, this was a big deal. I've worked really hard to get the credentials that I have, through, the American [00:15:00] Hippotherapy Association. So yeah, that was very difficult. but then ultimately one day I was just sitting with my horse in the backyard who was, who's now retired. and I was like, I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for him.
Mm-hmm. And that is the God's honest truth. And I was like, there is no way I'm gonna let him down right now, because if I decide, sure, I'll call a horse a tool that it doesn't mean much to me. But what it does for the horses as equine welfare, like matter is huge. I've now made them disposable without, you know, any sensory.
Being, I've taken away anything, I just stripped them down to like a swing or a ball or a, you know, a hammer. Mm-hmm. , ~um, ~which is not what they are. so that moment it just all became so clear to me that, you know, my career was built on the back of horses. It was, and I am grateful and I have nothing but gratitude for those horses.
So I will absolutely use the voice [00:16:00] that I have because I've been blessed with the voice to advocate for them. I had a coach one time tell me, Melissa, you're, you're gonna be confusing people way too much. You really need to stick to what you're doing. If you're helping people with horses, you're helping people with horses, forget about the horse part.
I really did think about it cuz again, you know, I am trying to get a big message out and so I thought, well, maybe she's right. Maybe I'm just confusing people. But again, that's not where I'm aligned. I really feel like I need to share my voice 50 50 because again, My entire career was built on the back of horses this is not the Melissa show, this is the Melissa and all of these amazing animals and the work they're doing with me, we're, we're 50 50.
the more that I sit with that, the more I just know it's the right path. And honestly, sometimes I think my message is more equine welfare than it is the healing aspect. And I'm okay with that cuz I know it's gonna go back and forth as [00:17:00] I evolve and grow. and I honestly, I think there's also a lot of healing information out there for people right now, but not that many are getting into the equine welfare piece as much.
and so if that's where my voice seems to be going right now, then that's okay too. There's plenty of time. ~Um, ~So, yeah, when you think about how we got here, right? How we got the information and the experience that we got,~ uh,~ we couldn't do it alone. And so that just kind of made it a no-brainer for me as to like really advocating and sticking to what feels right for me,~ uh,~ as I kind of go on my professional journey.
Hmm. Hmm. Yeah, that's really special. you had mentioned like the way things were, I. We're done in the old way, you know, being more dominant based, et cetera. And it reminds me of a conversation we had cuz we had to go and basically have conversations with everybody we worked with and say, Hey, this is what we're thinking mean.
We literally went to people's houses [00:18:00] and came in and sat in their living rooms and said, this is the direction we're going, you know, we hope you'd want to come with us, but we're not sure you will. and honestly we went from having a waiting list and never needing to advertise to just having a very small group of people now.
And it's like family, but, you know, it's, it's a small group. Wow. One of the feedbacks we got was, well it kind of seems like what you're saying is just like the way it was done in the old days. And at first, cuz I just kind of thought of this like idyllic. Vision of like the sensitive cowboy, I guess.
You know, maybe like the, even the Tom Dorrance Yeah. ~Uh, ~tradition, which is really beautiful. And I thought, oh well, yeah, I guess she's kind of right. And, but then the more I got to thinking about it, I was like, well, actually no, we're like, we're bringing in this scientific aspect, like you used the word entrainment.
There's the heart coherence. There's trauma-informed principles. Trauma-informed trauma principles, which I we're gonna talk to you about that soon. and finding this con this way that it all lines up and makes sense. I actually think [00:19:00] that's, Very original and new,~ uh,~ for what we're all trying to do.
And that's something that I know that we're all aligned with between you and I. And I also just wanna recognize you for not just getting upset with the American Hippotherapy Association and saying, well, go ahead and take it. I'm fine. I'm, I'm, you're already credentialed your experience. I'm sure you would be fine without them, but instead you said, let's build a bridge.
And you said, how can I speak their language? To help bring them back. And that's, the essence of advocacy and activism and that's how things get done in the world. And personally, I, I don't know if I could do that. And I just am glad that people like you are out there doing that.
And I was hoping maybe you could share a little bit of some of the science that you did talk to them about. I know you've done some of your own case studies too.
Yeah, yeah. Absolutely.
The Science Behind Equine Movement
---
So yeah, when you're talking to medical professionals, they want research. They want the black and white. Just tell them numbers, tell them how it is going to objectively quantify a change [00:20:00] for something.
Right? ~Um, ~and so I had to think about it from,~ uh,~ truly from their standpoint, right? the Hippotherapy Association is very much equine movement, the changes that we can make based off of equine movement. And I thought, okay, so we're looking at equine movement. What goes into equine movement. And of course we have the bones and ligaments and the anatomy, which of course plays a huge part in it.
But then there's this other part that comes into play, which is exactly where I went with it. And I said, okay, now let's just imagine we're walking along one day along a path. No problem at all. You can feel your body going very nice and easy. No problem. All of a sudden you see a huge ice patch.
How does your gait change? What do you change? And you can almost feel it in your body where you stiffen up, you tighten, you're gonna take shorter steps, right? You are going to change the way you move based off the perception of the ice being slippery. Now, of course, if it [00:21:00] is true ice, of course it's gonna be slippery.
But to horses, right? The ice, the puddles, all of that. They're not really sure because of the way that their vision works. So let's look at it from the horse's perspective and what that means to equine movement. And that was exactly the, the way that I went for it. I looked at how horses, we always, many people think they have thick skin, which is actually true.
They have thick skin, but that doesn't mean they don't have nerves, endings in all of that thick skin. They can feel a fly. Okay, so let's take it from that aspect as well. So a lot of times, you know, we might use different,~ um,~ toys and apparatus on the back of the horses all to kind of get our clients a little bit more engaged.
But what is that doing to the horse? ~Uh, ~so if we look at it from that standpoint now we also have the adverse sounds that they're hearing because their hearing is so much more in tune than ours. They're getting the vibration from the toys. They're getting the excited energy from behind them with the participants.
They're surrounded by [00:22:00] people who are predators. And we're gonna talk about equine movement. So we ha, I just was thinking about how I can strip all of this away and show them all of this matters. If we're gonna talk about equine movement game on, let's talk about equine movement as a whole because it doesn't happen in a box, it doesn't happen in a vacuum.
This happens in real time. And horses are sentient beings just as people are. So their movement is very much based off of the perception of what's happening around them. So you have to look at the horse's perspective, which is all the sensory apparatus, right? Just because of the way that their brain is different than ours.
They are truly in survival mode. So they are constantly picking up, you guys know this, and all this stuff around them. And they're going to change their movement based off of that. Mm-hmm. , and that's equine movement. That is still equine movement. And now we can kind of, you know, sweep in there and say, all right, I get it.
You can, you can say a tool, but a tool [00:23:00] by definition isn't going to change its performance based off of any of the things that a horse's performance is based off of. and I also think that that performance is where we can really look, start looking at the race horsing industry and some of these top notch athletes who are, you know, doing some pretty impressive things.
But if we're gonna look at true horse movement, equine movement and performance, well now we need to look at the whole thing. I would love to figure out how to really do that, and find some research in a way that we could. Show everyone. And I did re meet a researcher who did this great research article,~ um,~ about how the horses can smell joy, fear, anger, all of that off of us.
and I said to her and I said, what if we looked at this community, some of these like high level venting horses, and looked at their equine movement while they're smelling joy, fear, anything like that. And she thought that that would be a very cool idea. [00:24:00] We just need to find a way to get it funded.
I think now, you know, now we're looking at the equine welfare piece pretty head on. if we can pull something like that off. Right. Again, these are like. Melissa has those big pipe dreams, . ~Um, ~but if we could pull that together and say, listen, how your horse is perceiving all of this matters.
Oh gosh, we'd have horses living out 24 7 everywhere. Yeah. I think, I would hope the research shows right. I could be totally rocked, but I don't think I am. I'm gonna go on my gut on this one.
yeah. Well when you know, to quote Maya Angelou, when you know better, you do better hopefully when that information comes up, I do think that can help change culture.
And when you can change culture, that's when people and animals, we start to realize we're connected. There's, yes, there's the piece that, that is very important to healing. Is our interconnectedness. When we start to notice and work with the world [00:25:00] and with the knowledge that we're interconnected, boy we, we get healthier,
so much healthier and, and it feels better.
When we feel connected there is, honestly, I can't think of a better feeling in the world.
Hey friends, Josh here, we've launched a free community for the herd is calling it's on substack subscribe to join thoughtful discussions and access exclusive content. It's as easy to use a social media, but so much better because social media, am I right? In the words of John Lennon. A dream you dream alone is only a dream, but a dream you dream together is reality.
Like the wisdom of the herd, we are stronger together. Click the link nearby to subscribe and get in on the conversation. Now back to the pod.
The Importance of Trauma-Informed Care
---
One thing that I believe is missing from that traditional horsemanship model. Mm-hmm. [00:26:00] is the connection because it's so much of like that ego of like, the horse is going to do this because I am the leader.
~Um, ~but that's nothing but disconnect. That's nothing but you getting your way. That's has nothing to do with what's going on for, for the horse at all. But when you connect with them, and I, I think this is where the trauma-informed care comes in really well with horses, because I know for myself being a trauma survivor, Horses were the first, one of the first things that I ever connected with that I could safely connect with.
and that gave me the courage to then feel like, okay, I'm gonna try to connect with this person now. And taking it a little bit further and taking it a little bit further, I always need my horses behind me. Because that they are still my connection. They are what allows me to feel safe enough to go out and into the world and kind of use the voice.
But horses provide a safe [00:27:00] connection. And for those who've never felt it, whether, you know, whatever happened in their childhood or maybe they had it and they lost it, that safe connection is always available with the horses. You just have to surrender. ~Um, ~and that is where the trauma informed work with horses, I think really,~ uh,~ I mean it's so beneficial in so many different ways.
but that for me is the foundation, of that because that's the disconnect is what happens when you undergo that trauma, that chronic stress, for long periods of time. You kind of disconnect from yourself, which inevitably you disconnect from others. do you just become unconsciously doing your routines and cycles?
until you get connected again.
Yeah. That's so touching to hear you explain it that way. I think that's just so beautiful. The connection aspect. And the trauma informed lens. And I'm, I'm hoping you guys can riff a bit on that too. that's a new concept for me. Victoria introduced that to me, a trauma-informed lens.
And it's [00:28:00] one of those things that once you learn it, it's really exciting for the first time cuz it's like, oh, this is it. This is everything. Like this is the difference. This is the missing puzzle piece. This is what brings everything together. This is what's missing in society and part of why society is so fractured as a result.
And even the traditional aspect. It'll say the sport of horsemanship I think it is just that dominant, concept and, and it's subtle, even like some great sensitive horse people, it's still has that element of dominance. Mm-hmm. .
, it's the vulnerability aspect that you guys brought up earlier. to trust the horse, there's this thing. And that's, a very nuanced there's so much in what you were saying that I just, I wish we had hours and hours and maybe will,
but what was it, you said working with horses or being around the horse was, it was the first time you could ever trust another Yeah. Being, can you, [00:29:00] what was it like, what was that moment or what was the, maybe it was a series of moments, but what was that for you? Because it does seem like that was
the moment why we're even talking now. And so I'd just be so curious what it was for you.
Yeah, I think, you know, it kind of added up to a lot of moments, but I'll never forget, the first horse that I rode was Oreo. he was hysterical and old, but I just knew when he looked at me, it was like something I hadn't really felt before.
And I was, and I just remember staring at his eye and I can see his eye in my head right now and just staring at me. And I was like, oh, all right. And so I, you know, I just climbed onto this, this horse bare back with a, you know, a neck strap without a helmet. ~Um, ~and off we went.
A Childhood Connection with Horses
---
And then when I came back I was like, oh, I wonder if he's gonna remember me.
And he did. Like, I swear he did. And I was like, And again, to a seven year old little girl who was feeling very alone, vulnerable, [00:30:00] not seen, this was huge. Mm-hmm. , I was like, this Lord sees me. He knows me. and that for me was it, I was like, okay. After that, you know, ~um, ~I was begging my parents. We didn't, I didn't grow up.
~Um, ~we very lower middle classes is how I grew up. ~Uh, ~so there was no horses to be bought or anything. ~Um, ~but we did get a dog and I had many dogs. ~Um, ~but I knew every time we would go back at the summer, I would get to see the horses.
The Healing Power of Horses
---
And then I started partnering them with children and my own horse, smokey was the one who really showed me that he wasn't going to work unless he could say hello to the children in like his way.
I remember just watching him and I'm like, He, he needs to say hello. And once I started doing that, the sessions just took off. My results were going through the roof. it all just kind of accumulated right where I was feeling seen and heard. The horses were feeling seen and heard, and it just all put it together for me.
And I couldn't put words to it until recently, [00:31:00] probably two years ago, which is when I was like, it's the connection. It is the connection. They gave me connection and I didn't have it. And you know, I had spent years in therapy,~ um,~ dealing with,~ uh,~ some sexual assault when I was younger and, you know, just life as a child.
Mm-hmm. , ~um, ~growing up in the time that I grew up. And never once did we work on any kind of connection talk. the horses just did it for me.
Therapeutic Benefits of Horse Riding
---
And then I realized as I. grew professionally. It's because of the horses. They have always been the stable foundation and connection for me. I can connect with them so much easier than I can connect with people.
it just feels very natural to me. I mean, it's safe, right? They're, they're a safe place. They're non-judgmental. They're not gonna lie. It's very easy. And to someone who doesn't trust themselves or sometimes doesn't trust the people around them, this is a safe place to be. This is a [00:32:00] very safe place. You know, that horse is.
It's not gonna lie to you. You don't have to worry about impressing it. It doesn't care what you're wearing. It doesn't care about, you know, the amount of money you have in the bank. This is just an animal that wants nothing more than you to be present with it.
Emotional and Physical Healing
---
And how healing is that for, for, I mean, pretty much anyone, right?
Especially in this day and age. ~Um, ~just coming out of Covid and all the fear that was associated with that. just having a place that you can go be seen, be truly seen and accepted. I mean, , that's the power of these amazing animals. But again, the vulnerability of surrendering to them is something that a lot of people are very afraid of.
~Um, ~I just had, I came out of,~ um,~ peas in the paddock this morning, and this woman,~ uh,~ said she was at, she was doing equine therapy somewhere, and all the horses there were huge, right? And so she was glad that some of the ones that I was introducing her to in the paddock were smaller. Little did she know I was taking her over [00:33:00] to Naples, who's our Belgian cross draft
So I was, I'm like, okay, yeah, they're, I'm like, they're all pretty, pretty small. the group walks into Maples Paddock, and Maple is our herd leader here at Endeavor. And Maple, you know, she just comes walking right up to us with the intention of like, all right, you ladies are here. Let's do some work.
Right? Maple just needed to relax as the herd leader, she needed to rest. so we kind of had our hands on and we were just slowly breathing and meditating with Maple. And Maple fell asleep standing up, and her lip was drooling and it was beautiful. And this woman. Just started crying and she was like, this is amazing.
I was like, yeah, yeah, just keep your hands on, let it go.
The Role of Connection in Therapy
---
And you know, she had come to the session pretty fearful of a lot of things, and here she was completely surrendering and front of this, you know, well over 2000 pound animal. that's the gift of the horse, you know, that truly is it.
I have goosebumps.
Yeah, [00:34:00] me too. Not the first time in this whole conversation actually.
It was pretty remarkable. And I have to say what was even cooler is then Z, who's our second in command, pretty much in the herd over here,~ um,~ decided she needed to roll, right? So the whole herd was then feeling what was happening.
Gosh. ~Um, ~and I was like, what a gift that these women just gave the entire herd. Here. They gave their herd leader a moment to relax, which. You know, isn't something that comes naturally or easier, or easy to them. Plus, if we look at from Maple's perspective, she's surrounded by predators. She does. The only person she knew was me.
~Um, ~so I was doing my best to stay grounded for her, but she trusted the entire thing and she just took her nap there surrounded by people. ~Um, ~and where we were standing, she also, she put herself in a place she could not have walked away easily. She kind of put herself right in front of,~ um,~ her shed. And so she had people on the sides of [00:35:00] her in a shed in front of her.
And I was like, maple, you didn't, you really didn't set yourself up very well here. But she was completely content with it. And, you know, again, going into my head, I was thinking, should I move her? Should I not? I, you know, blah, blah, blah. And ultimately I surrendered. I was like, listen, she knows, she knows what she's doing here.
Melissa calmed down. ~Um, ~and I did. And, and she was, she was great.
Holistic Approach to Therapy
---
Gosh, there's so much good stuff in everything. You said the last part though, the, the going to your gut, the getting outta your head, you know, starting to try to control the situ. You know, I do the same thing as a writing instructor and a horse horsemanship instructor.
Like, I'm always trying to sort of fashion these experiences for people and keep them safe. this word magic comes up, but it's not magic. We know it's a thing, it's a phenomenon that sometimes is hard to explain, but it's, we know, it's that felt sense, that attunement [00:36:00] piece that people are trying to figure out how to quantify and, and prove through the scientific method and research.
it's that when we go to our gut, that's when things start to unfold that really are. Are transformative. Yeah. For the horses, for us, or for the clients, for the facilitators. It, it's, it really is, you know, something that we've been taught to ignore in our culture, I think conditioned to ignore.
Right? That felt sense, that but when, when we tune into it, the sky's the limit, right?
And so why do we still struggle with it sometimes, right? Like, I just keep it in advice itself. Like how many times do I have to be reminded to trust it before? Am I gonna really just trust it? And I don't know, you still feel it, right?
Like it's, at some point we have to learn that we have to just surrender to it and go, but it, it is, [00:37:00] and I guess it's just that pull against societal norm of that, right? Like you said, it is something that we, in society, we don't, we don't do. And I think some of us that do listen to it,~ um,~ You know, might be labeled as like the Pollyannas of the world or any of these other terms.
You know, I've been called lot of those,~ um,~ which I used to get really offended by, but now I just say thank you because I'm like, you know, ~um, ~you wanna call me soft-hearted? I think it's beautiful. Thank you. ~Um, ~yeah, so now I'm just taking it and owning it because some of the stuff that I see that is the norm I don't want to be associated with.
Mm-hmm. . ~Um, ~which, you know, is not always the easy place to, to stand, but I know I don't stand alone cuz I got you guys and there's so many others out there trying to do this amazing work. And that I think is what is so great is that we can all just empower each other right. And just keep encouraging each other and letting you know each other like that we're not alone in this mission.
~Um, ~[00:38:00] and as long as we keep all on that path, I think we're all gonna be okay.
Well said. That's like a mic drop. Yeah.
The Importance of Unmounted Activities
---
Melissa, another thing that we have in common is I was really interested in the body biomechanics. I started as in massage therapy from a really young age and then went to school and studied exercise physiology and Yeah. And kinesiology and all that fun stuff. And I love it. And for years I, I kept trying to find, dig underneath stuff.
I got really into being the technical aspect of, of body work. The more,~ um,~ I guess you could say advanced,~ uh,~ maneuvers and techniques. It was just like really into the technician aspect and wanted to work with athletes and performance people and. I really enjoyed that. I know you said like sports medicine was where it was at for you.
Yeah. Early on. But there did come a point where it was like, okay, this isn't, this is, this is [00:39:00] very surface. Like there's more going on here I think now, and learning about how horses have been healing for people has helped connect a lot of these dots for me, because it's the same, you know, it's like con consultancy principle goes back to things like entrainment,~ uh,~ coherence, connection, attunement, healing from trauma is probably.
Right at the top of the list. Yeah. ~Um, ~so I'm just curious, like for you in your experience, if you could share a little bit with us, if we could almost go back a little bit, some of the things, like you mentioned the movement of the hips. Mm-hmm. , I've heard things about like even the craniosacral rhythm with the rocking.
Yeah. I wonder if you could just share a couple of principles for people that might not be aware of just some of the physical benefits of riding. Yeah. That might be, yeah.
Ab absolutely. So the, you know, the core of it is the movement. So, your goal is to, because no person walks the same and no horse, two horses walk the same.
Right. [00:40:00] Everybody has their own,~ uh,~ idiosyncrasies to their gait patterns. ~Um, ~but you wanna pair them up as best as you can. So let's say I have a three year old. ~Uh, ~three year olds, what do we know about the way that they walk? It's very,~ um,~ side to side, very unsteady and choppy, right? ~Um, ~so I'm gonna be looking at a pony, cuz I want that choppy gate.
I want that lateral side to side movement. ~Um, ~and ponies, because they take more steps per minute, is more appropriate again, for that three-year-old. Cause a three-year-old's cadence with their short legs is going to take more steps per minute than you or I as grown adults. Now if I have, you know, a 45 year old.
~Um, ~client who's having difficulties with, or just a recent surgery and needs to get back on their feet,~ um,~ what is, I'm gonna look at their gait pattern and I'm gonna say, okay, what am I really looking for? Because I need to match that up as best as I can. Meet them where they are, and then take them where they're going.
~Um, ~because if you just put them [00:41:00] on the horse of where they're going to go, you're missing a step. You really need to sync up that cadence pattern. So what happens every time the horse takes a step forward, the human pelvis moves in the opposite, in the,~ um,~ contralateral. Motion. So it's almost like riding a bicycle backwards for the human pelvis as the horse is walking forwards.
~Um, ~but what that does is now we are strengthening and telling the body, this is how we function, this is how we're supposed to move. This is now helping that movement quality and kind, allowing them to feel that movement in a safe, controlled environment. Cause they're not going to fall, which is really, most of the time people get injured because they're afraid to fall and then they fall.
Right? Because they kinda are perseverating at it and then they end up falling. ~Um, ~but when they're on the horse, you know, we are right there with them holding them. I'm walking next to them. ~Um, ~I have sidewalks on the other side. Everybody is safe. It's contained. ~Um, ~[00:42:00] And they can feel it and their body can learn it, and that muscle education can start again.
Now they feel safe, right? The horse naturally is making them feel safe, connected, and heard. Mm-hmm. automatically. So now what happens? Their anxiety level comes lower. Their ability to actually learn and process what's happening goes up, right? Optimal learning doesn't happen if your arousal level is through the roof.
~Um, ~you can't learn anything if you're so nervous and outside of your body. ~Um, ~you need to bring that down. So we bring that down. Cause that's the horse's, one of their gifts, right? Is to just bring that arousal level down for people, puts them into their body and lets them feel it. So now the person is actually feeling it, their body and muscle memory is actually starting to learn this movement pattern.
And then when they get off, sure it's gonna take some sessions and it really varies, you know, depending on what's happening. ~Um, ~but you see substantial gains [00:43:00] afterwards. And that's just the, the physical piece, right? ~Um, ~the strictly, you know, muscles, bones kind of talking. ~Um, ~but there's this entire sensory aspect as well.
~Um, ~and as we learn about, you know, trauma-informed care or neurotypical,~ uh,~ neurodiverse, individuals nervous systems are all different. We're all at different levels. So the horse, if you then take a look at what horse is really kind of connecting to which participant. So if I were,~ um,~ an occupational therapist and I wanted to look at that sensory apparatus that was happening and the the participant was, you know, functioning, walking, and doing well there, I really might not look at that movement quite as much.
I'm gonna look at who that participant is kind of developing that connection with, because that's where they need to be. Because if that's what they need to do to feel calm, safe, connected, then they can really learn and take in the world around them. Otherwise, [00:44:00] it's too much information coming all at them.
Their arousal is too high, the horse just brings it back down. And that gets really interesting because you do have to have the eye for. ~Uh, ~that connection, you have to have the eye for where that part, what that participant needs, and the horse that's going to, to partner with them best. And you hope that the, that horse is going to be willing.
~Um, ~and if that horse is saying, no, thank you, well then we have to respect that,~ um,~ and move on to the next best. So sometimes the horse that you think,~ uh,~ is going to be the gold, gold horse for that participant,~ um,~ that horse says, no, thank you, and you move on to the next. And it's, it's just as good because there's a connection where as if I had asked that horse to take that client anyways.
I wouldn't be getting results. Mm-hmm. , ~um, ~the horse has to be a willing participant in all of it. ~Um, ~because again, look at the equine movement. If you don't wanna go into work, [00:45:00] you're not hop skipping and jumping in, right? You're like, oh gosh, I gotta go in. You know, you are not engaged there. There's absolutely no engagement of anything.
~Um, ~and we need that for the horse. The horse has to be engaged. So really that connection piece is, is huge for all of it. ~Um, ~Yeah, it's truly there for all of it, but for that movement piece. and the research isn't just on children anymore. It's on, you know, people with ms. stroke, Parkinson's, Parkinson's.
The research on Parkinson's and horse movement, has been pretty cool. so it's in all of that. and then if we look and we think about the mental and cognitive changes for these participants when they're on the horse and they feel connected, all of a sudden they start feeling better about themselves.
But what happens when we feel better about ourselves, we're more motivated and all of a sudden we start doing things we thought we couldn't do. ~Um, ~and we can really change the trajectory of their, their life and their disease patterns,~ um,~ [00:46:00] by allowing them to have that connection,~ um,~ with the horses. And it doesn't even have to be riding.
~Um, ~I mean for the physical aspects, yes. ~Um, ~as long as you have that willing participant, but. I don't know about you. I spend, I haven't gotten on a horse, in over three years at least. I am on the ground and that's where I love it cuz that's where I can connect with them. Mm-hmm. , ~um, ~when I'm on top, I feel bad when I'm on top.
I am not balanced. I am not coordinated. my horse smokey, if we go on a trail ride, I mean he was constantly checking my shoe to make sure I was still there. Cause he's probably thinking I fell off. You know, like, I
just had a student yesterday in our lessons, she was doing groundwork and she's going through our modules and she's working on,~ uh,~ the in hand stuff and, and the groundwork piece.
And she said, what if. You know, is it okay if I just never wanna ride? And I said, yes. I love it. Like, I love that, like riding is like [00:47:00] a whole other thing and it's thing, and it's beautiful, you know, if that's what you're, what, what you wanna do. But it is, it is just one piece of just a vast,~ uh,~ space for connection, relationship.
Yeah. ~Uh, ~learning all of it. So, yeah. I, I love that.
And that's such a testament to the work you're doing, right? Mm-hmm. Like, think about how you were able to take that person on this transformative journey and to the point where now she's questioning. About riding like that is amazing. Congratulations to you guys, cuz that's really powerful stuff that you just did with her.
And I'll never forget there was a trainer, and don't get me wrong, some horses love being ridden. Mm-hmm. . ~Um, ~but there was a trainer and she was fascinating cuz she really observed people as much as she observed horses. And I'm trying to push her to write a book. but she told me, she's like, Melissa riding is very ego driven.
And it took me a minute to understand what she was saying. and I was like, well, what [00:48:00] do you mean? And she's like, well, think about it. You're getting on top of an animal and you're dictating what it needs to do. ~Um, ~it's, and you judge yourself based on the performance of that animal. Mm-hmm. , like it's all about feeding the person's ego at that moment.
And I was like, whoa. Like talk about mic drop moment. And that has been kind of in my head now again, that. I'm not saying like that's true for everyone. I'm sure there are people out there doing some really beautiful riding and the horses are loving it. ~Um, ~But I do think that that is happening,~ um,~ and not something that, you know, is obviously spoken about,~ um,~ in most of the horsemanship world,~ um,~ because that would take a lot of reflection, right?
Yeah. So true. Yeah. You know, the holistic concept is really important to us and what you were talking about with your work in,~ uh,~ physical therapy and hippotherapy, it was so holistic in that you have not just focusing on the physical aspect, but you are [00:49:00] really looking for these other things. And I'm sure, I mean, obviously right?
That's why you're so effective at the work you do. Mm-hmm. . And I think it's so important for you to keep getting that message out there. And I'm glad you're mentoring other. People in your field and, and leading in that regard. Cause I think it's really powerful. Cause at the end of the day, just like your original big goal, it's better for people and it's better for the horses.
Yeah. And you know, these, this concept of riding versus not riding is really powerful too. You know, it, we had mentioned, we, we talk privately before that we,~ uh,~ we work closely with a friend of ours named Chrissy Stout, who's,~ um,~ a path certified instructor, works in Hawaii. She's actually in the journey cohort too with you.
she had told us that. There really needs to be a PSA campaign for Unmounted activities within the therapeutic riding, worlds. Of course, there's many, many worlds there, or equine assisted activities worlds. And I just thought that was so fascinating because from our horsemanship perspective, we were also seeing that.
And it is true that there is a lot of [00:50:00] potential for that beauty to transmit to writing. And we've seen that, like in one of our mentors, Dominique Barbiere and his student Jacobs, who's actually coming here to, Cole, a workshop with us at the end of the month. So there is this. It's almost like a secret society that is able to connect all of these things, but it's very rare at at that level.
And it takes a lifetime of practice. It takes a and practice. Yes. That's at the end of the day, I, when you're talking, I had all these light bulbs when you're talking and mm-hmm. , when you're talking about how hard it is to follow your gut too, and like I think that's really the essence of it. It's not like we just get it and we're, we're done.
We're lightened. We got it all figured out. It's like, it's a daily practice and some days it flows a little easier. Some days it's not. But the point is to just show up and do the practice. And, and I know we're getting close to, cuz you got some clients coming up and I wanted you to give you a chance to, to share a little bit about.
your work that you're doing with peace and the paddock, or your mentorship, whatever you wanted to talk about. And [00:51:00] I'll throw your website up where you're talking to, you're so kind to share that work. And I'll put it in the liner notes too, if anybody wants to know
what you said earlier about the, you being like technical about your approach when you were doing the kinesiology and exercise science.
truly feel that is where a lot of the mentees that I treat get stuck. Where, where the people I'm mentoring get stuck in these like nitty gritty technical aspects. ~Um, ~and actually having them step back and actually take a look, take a breath and feel what's happening to them is like, what, what? No, Melissa, you know, I, I'm paying you to teach me about horse movement.
And I'm like, I am teaching you about horse movement. Yes. It's so frustrating. ~Um, ~So frustrating , but ~uh, ~it's, it is, people just get stuck on that technical stuff.
Peace in the Paddock Program
---
Peace in the paddock is a program that I developed that incorporates the trauma-informed stretch. So really kind of connecting with your body, feeling what your body is telling you.
~Um, ~because so many people are walking around, [00:52:00] I, what's chronic pain has, you know, plagued people for so long, it's not always coming from your body. ~Um, ~that emotional pain can sometimes find that home right within the body just as easy as a, a true physical ailment, and it becomes a true physical ailment if you don't address it.
~Um, ~and so just by partnering them with horses, they do get a chance to feel that connection, that safety and all of that beautiful stuff that the horses bring. And I do feel like I've seen now a lot of different,~ um,~ Programs out there partnering people with horses for wellness. And I think all of them are going to be successful because the horses, as long as the horses are willing participants and they're happy and they're safe and they're healthy and their, their basic needs are being met, the horses is gonna do its work.
~Um, ~and the rest is going to be whatever the person needs on top of that. Right. Whether, you know, they're doing trauma informed work or whichever direction they're going. But yeah, peace in the paddock was really [00:53:00] cool. We did a case study,~ um,~ that showed that horse people were able to bring their heart rates down faster when they meditated near horses than when they were further away, as well as their,~ um,~ levels of stress.
~Um, ~went down remarkably after four weeks,~ um,~ even when they were not present with the horses. ~Um, ~and so that was just this, you know, very quick case study that we did,~ um,~ that I would love to follow up. ~Um, ~I never thought of myself as a researcher,~ uh,~ but I think. I might have to start because I think that the research needs to happen, especially for the medical community to really get behind what's happening.
And by doing that research, we can then spread that word to all of those groups that we spoke about earlier. ~Um, ~really showing them,~ um,~ these sentient beings and how we might be able to, you know, function a little bit better for them in society.
Wow, that's powerful, Melissa. Yeah, beautiful. I think we're gonna need to do like a 10 part series.
, oh my. [00:54:00] Next time I wanna hear more about, I wanna hear more about you guys and the stuff that you're doing because , the stuff you guys are doing is so amazing and so powerful and so just keep it up. And I'm sorry that you went from having a wait list to like whatever you went to,~ uh,~ but it'll happen.
It's so frustrating though. I know what, believe me, I know when that happens. and it makes you doubt and all of that. Oh God, it's the worst. But you guys are really onto something here, so onto something.
Yeah. We believe it and the, the and both situation that yes, we, we did go down to a very small group people, but boy do I love working with those people.
It's just renewed the, the energy and the the love that I, that I have for the work that I've done my whole life. So yes, it's an and both situation and I agree. It's, we, we have absolute faith and ~um, ~and especially when we get to talk to people like you, Melissa, it's like, yeah, oh [00:55:00] yes, this is the way, this is the path.
Concluding Thoughts and Future Plans
---
So yes, thank you so much for giving us this, this time of yours today, cuz I know it's really valuable.
You know, it's so interesting that you said that I, last year I kind of got into a, a little bit of a, A down spot, right? Where I was just kind of feeling like, oh gosh, and then I made some life changes, some pretty big life changes, and it renewed my love for my profession that I was starting to lose a little bit.
And it's funny how if we don't follow those, those gut instincts,~ um,~ it does kind of strip away a lot of that happiness,~ um,~ when we don't follow it. So I love that you said that because it, it really truly resonates with me because I feel like I have found my profession and my mission all over again now that I've made those like decisions,~ um,~ that were tough to make, but needed to make, like you guys, it was sure it was tough to make, but ultimately it's the right thing for your personal mission.
~Um, ~and that does kinda light you back up inside, which is [00:56:00] really cool. Yes. Yeah, it sure does. It sure does. Well said. Yes. Thanks for your time today. I know you gotta get back to work. You were just led a, an incredible group this morning. You came and figured out your wifi so you could talk to us, and now you're rushing back out to see clients.
So I just wanna take a moment to honor and recognize you for the work you're doing for committing to the practice of following your gut. We know how courageous and hard that is for doing the work of healing,~ uh,~ humans and horses for the advocacy work that you've taken on building bridges within organizations between science and this deeper, hard to define feeling aspect of the connection and the attunement for dreaming big and having big dreams and visions that are hard to even see how they're gonna play out, but still committing to it.
and just this ripple effect that I know is happening all around you, every person you touch, and how that's just rippling and extending through their families, [00:57:00] through their future connections they have in life, probably even intergenerationally. So I just thank you for the work you're doing. Thank you for inspiring us and encouraging us and what we're doing, and I look forward to having a lot more conversations with you and partnering on some stuff.
I'm really excited. Yes, yes, definitely, definitely. All right. We're gonna figure that apart out, but it's gonna happen. Great. All right. Thank you, Melissa, and I catch you two minutes late. Have a great rest of your day. You too. We'll be in touch. Bye-bye. Bye. I.
I hope you enjoyed the show today. We'd love for you to join our free sub stack community for the herd is calling connect with us, engage in thoughtful discussions and access exclusive content. Click the link nearby to subscribe. It's so easy and totally free. We appreciate listening. And as always, may the horse be with [00:58:00] you.
