jim masterson pod FULL edited
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Introduction to Authenticity with Horses
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And she's learned that if you come into the paddock without being authentic about how you're feeling, if you're coming in, like, I'm not afraid of horses. I'm good with this. And that's not authentic. The horses won't come up to you. But the people that are really genuine, like I'm a little worried, I'm a little scared that the horses will come up to those people, that the horses pick up on stuff, you know, it's not just what we're doing for the horses, what the horse is doing for us too.
Interview with Jim Masterson Begins
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It's such a treat to get to interview Jim Masterson. We're really excited to share this episode with you. Jim is a great guy. He's got a great sense of humor has a big heart I just can't even imagine the impact he's had on the world through his techniques.
Jim Masterson's Background and Techniques
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We got to talk about some of his background and how he learned and all the thousands of hours he put into just working with horses before he developed and started teaching his technique. We talked a little bit about his collaborations with Mark Rashid and. Dr.
Peters, the power of collaboration over competition, how important going slow versus going deep is when working with horses.
[00:01:00] And how. equine bodywork can be impactful for program horses and equine therapy and equine assisted service programs. And he had some really powerful stories to share
There was a lot more. I could have talked to Jim for hours. Hopefully we'll get a chance to talk to him again. I hope you enjoy the episode. Welcome to the herd is calling podcast. This is where we break free from conventional norms to explore the art, science, and wonder of the horse human connection. I'm Josh Williams. And together with my wife, Victoria, we're your hosts. Our mission is to inspire and empower you to improve the lives of horses.
Subscribe to The Herd is calling on Substack for behind the scenes stories and unique content. Now let's get to the episode.
Josh: Welcome to the herd is calling podcast. We are absolutely thrilled to have the one and only Jim Masterson join [00:02:00] us today. I'm going to read a little bit about him for the few people that might not already know who he is.
And then we'll get started with some questions. Jim Masterson was the equine massage therapist for the 2006 through 2014 us endurance teams and equine clientele competing in FBI world cup. Pan American and World Games competitions. He teaches a unique method of equine body work in which the practitioner learns to read and follow the responses of the horse to touch to help the horse release tension and key junctions of the body that most affect performance.
It is a method in which the horse participates in the process that opens new levels of communication and trust with the horse.
Jim: Welcome Jim. Thanks.
Daily Life and Teaching Experiences
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Josh: We're so curious, what's just a day in the life What's a typical snapshot, either with horses or without
Jim: horses? Well, nowadays, we teach this now.
You know, we give seminars and courses all over everywhere. And I, we have lots of instructors. And so my job's changed [00:03:00] from working with horses to working with... People. So, ~uh, ~but we have two horses here on the farm. So, you know, we still get to, I still get to interact with horses I still go out and do expos ~and, ~and do a little bit of teaching.
but a day in the life of my life is pretty boring right now. I get up, I have my coffee, I go to the office or no, I usually do some chores around here and help my wife do chores. And then I go to the office and do whatever comes up I mean, it's fun going in ~and, ~and we do a lot of zoom calls with instructors and,~ uh,~ and other, the office people, the admin people. And then occasionally I get to get out on the road and go,~ uh,~ do an expo, or I do some clinics with Mark Rashid and Dr.
Peters, a couple of those a year. ~Um, uh, ~I'm leaving on,~ uh,~ either Tuesday or Wednesday to drive out to Pennsylvania. We're doing a weekend seminar. There'll be a live zoom streaming part and that's with,~ uh,~ Kelly King at horse class. And so I'll drive out to Pennsylvania, which is always nice to get out on the road and then I'll [00:04:00] come back here and then drive out to California in October for the Mark Rashid clinic.
And with Dr. Peters and Mark Rashid in Oro, York Brandy, California. so that, that's ~the, the, ~the day in the life is pretty boring, but the, you know, the bigger picture is I get to go out and have some fun. And I get to do fun podcasts like this too. So, yeah, well, so far we're having fun.
Victoria: Yeah, exactly.
~Uh, ~well, ~when, ~when are
Jim: you first drawn to horses?
Early Influences and Learning Moments
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Jim: Uh, well, I,~ uh,~ When I was a kid,~ uh,~ we lived in Southern California. I was born there and,~ um,~ it was a lot more rural around where we lived than it is now in Southern California. So we had a family horse and then a friend of mine,~ uh,~ my buddy's dad had ~a, ~a ranch nearby that I would spend weekends ~and, ~and on and,~ um,~ But then I got away from horses because we started traveling.
My dad's a pilot, was a pilot. So we ended up, we started traveling and then,~ uh,~ I got back into horses about 19, well, off and on. But then I, when I met my wife or my wife and I got married here, I live in Fairfield, Iowa, she's a hunter jumper rider and there was a hunter jumper [00:05:00] barn,~ uh,~ here in Fairfield.
There were a couple of families they showed and they traveled, they had a trainer and they would,~ uh,~ go to different shows around the Midwest ~and, ~and so the trainer was looking for ~a, ~a groom to groom at the shows and to haul the horses to the shows. She had local groups, but and I was between jobs and my wife said, why don't you go to work for Val?
And so I did. And so I got back ~into the, ~into the horse world on a showing level, you know, competition level as a groom That's when I kind of latched onto this, the, this idea of following the horse's responses, paying attention to the horse
as you're doing body work on the horse. ~And, ~and then I realized that it was more effective and ~it was more, ~it was more interesting cause it was interactive front pedal with the horse. ~Uh, ~so that's probably in 1997 is when I got into this.
Josh: Great. ~I, ~I was wondering Jim, cause when I first heard about equine massage, which I didn't even know that was a thing. I was a human massage therapist,~ um,~ for a long time. And I met Victoria,~ um,~ who was a horse trainer. And she told me, [00:06:00] oh yeah, they do this on horses too. And I was like, yeah, that's so unique.
And I went and got your book. Cause it was like literally the only thing I could find. And I was intrigued by the title beyond horse massage. I was wondering if you could tell us like what inspired
Jim: that name, particularly. ~ It,~ it's not really massage. You know, I didn't, when I started,~ uh,~ grooming these hunter jumpers, I didn't know there was a massage horses or, but I realized that they, you know, they do ~a lot, ~a lot of human modalities, probably all of them that are they use on horses.
~Um, ~acupressure, acupuncture. myofascial release chiropractic and just sports massage. So these,~ um,~ the people that show horses, you know, it's important that their horses are moving well and that they keep moving well because that's why they're competing. And when you get into the,~ uh,~ higher levels of,~ uh,~ hunter jumper and show jumping, they, they'll do, you know, they'll do everything.
They take care of the horses really well to make sure that they're going to keep going. And so I, would see these people working on horses, either massage [00:07:00] or chiropractic or whatever. And I wasn't really interested in doing that, in doing, massage. I'd never really thought about it, I noticed these subtle changes in the horse's behavior while some of the therapists were working on them.
The Power of Subtlety in Equine Bodywork
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Jim: And that's what kind of intrigued me ~and I, ~ that's what got my interest. And ~um, ~I might as well tell you, you know, there's, there are two incidents that really caught my attention and one was,~ uh,~ the,~ um,~ there was an old horse chiropractor from New Zealand who used to, he lived in California, but the vets used to fly him out.
To the East Coast, you know, we were showing in Florida then in Ocala and Wellington and Lexington and, he would come out and adjust the horses and our horses, our Barnes horses were on his list. And so when he came to work on the horses, I would, I was intrigued because one, he got really good results, but two, he paid really close attention to the horse's body language as he's working on it.
And he used very long lever forceful techniques. ~Um, ~but he knew how to read the horse ~for, ~for example,~ um, He would, ~he would make an adjustment on the pole on the atlas in the neck and he would kind of get the horse's head around towards his shoulder and he could get it nice and relaxed and then he'd make this huge adjustment and you'd hear [00:08:00] five pops and then the horse, then he would step back to what he called, see what the horse had to say.
And when ~he, ~he'd step back if the horse dropped its head, it would drop its head and kind of shake its head a little and start yawning repeatedly. That was his indication that he got a good adjustment. then he would go back and check and everything would be moving in alignment.
I wanted to do what he was doing. But, and I would follow him around whenever he was at a show that we were at. But,~ um, he didn't, ~he didn't train people, you know. He's, the old timers,~ they,~ they don't share their secrets, you know. They don't,~ uh, they just, ~they just do what they do. But anyways, I would follow him around and I would drive him from barn to barn and I would hold the lead rope for him ~and, and, ~and every once in a while, he would let the little something slip, you know, the little nugget of wisdom that was pretty valuable, that was
1 thing, but then another thing we were at a show in Estes Park, Colorado, once and the trainer Val, 2 gals to massage the horses and. They did traditional massage, but they started the session by running their fingers lightly down the top line of the horse down the bladder [00:09:00] meridian. I didn't know what a bladder meridian was, they were.
They were running their fingers lightly down just to connect with the horse and get the horse to relax. I noticed as they were doing it, they wouldn't put pressure. They would just run their fingers. And I noticed that every once in a while the horse would blink, you know, a clear, definite blink, like the horse vet was feeling something under their finger at that spot.
I experimented with it and they showed me how to do the bladder meridian ~and, ~and some other things as I went down the horses. top line. and I would watch the eye and if the horse blinked, I would just stop and wait and do nothing there because I wasn't trained to do anything like I wasn't going to massage it or I wasn't going to do anything.
So I just wait there because I'm naturally lazy and I can just wait there as long as it takes. and I just see what the horse, what was going on, what the horse did next. And, the horse, let's say, for example, every horse is different. So I get a blank and I'd wait there and some horses, every horse responds a little differently.
But,~ uh,~ A typical thing would be they'll wait, like they're feeling something under your finger and they might blink again and they might drop their head a little bit and start to relax. And then, often they would drop their head and start to lick and chew and start to yawn. So that's where I put [00:10:00] those two things together.
Well, the yawn, you know, that means something. And I came to learn that it means the horse has released a lot of tension in its body. And I don't know, ~it's a, ~it's a parasympathetic response. So when I learned bigger words. So that's what really got me interested. So I realized that you didn't have to use a lot of force and go against the horse, that you can go with the horse and get the horse's body, the horse's nervous system to release the tension.
I could tell we're working with the horse's nervous system on some level because we're not really doing anything mechanical with that type of technique. But we're working with the horse's nervous system and there's one part of the nervous system that holds on to tension and another part that releases tension.
And then, well, why does the horse hold on to tension? Well, because it's guarding something. You know, when the horses are in pain or sore, they don't have the option of complaining and they don't even have the option of showing it. You know, if they start to limp right away, ~then ~then in the wild, then they become a target.
You know, they go to the top of the menu. So there's a certain part of the nervous system that's gonna hold on and block out pain and discomfort. And there's a certain part that will let it go. So if you find out you pay attention to ~the horse, ~the horse's [00:11:00] behavior and you find out where they're holding tension.
If you wait long enough and light enough, And don't put any pressure on that. They'll start to release it. Cause if you put any pressure on, they're going to internally brace. So you can experiment with it. You can put a tiny bit of pressure and you'll see the horse, just eyes widen and you'll back off a tiny bit and you'll see them blink.
So that's made sense to me. So that's what got me started in, in doing this.
Josh: That's fascinating. ~I, ~I love how you came at that was such a sort of beginner's mind. You know, one of our favorite quotes is from Shunryu Suzuki, where he says in the beginner's mind are many possibilities, but in the expert's mind, there are a few.
So I can just see you putting together these things, watching this chiropractor work, who's doing otherwise pretty forceful movements, but has sensitivities watching. And then you see these ladies doing the bladder meridian technique and the bells are going off. ~And, ~and what's so significant about that as I hear it, is just to think of the impact ~that ~that has now had, you know, because you.
teach, prolifically and this is the thousands of people that have been impacted by [00:12:00] those early aha moments of a single person. I just think that's really fascinating. ,~ um,~ I saw one of your videos and I totally cracked up cause you said, okay, you know, here's the horse's head.
Here's the horse's tail. That's your anatomy lesson. And yeah, and I really thought that was great. You know, I actually love anatomy and all that stuff too, but I think that kind of gets in the way sometimes when you.
Jim: It does. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It does complicate it.
Cause ~you get, ~you get in your mind, you know, you get in your head about it and you stop observing the horse if you do that. so, you know, starting out,~ uh,~ uneducated and lazy was a huge advantage. So not necessarily lazy, but a little bit, have a little bit of patience to wait and see what the horse's body does.
And the cool thing is that,~ um,~ so many people,~ um,~ You know, when we grow up with horses, ~we don't, ~we don't, we're not aware of that, you know, or just aware that this is a horse we don't know how much it's protecting itself, you know, we think, oh, it's just standing there and it's doing, it's allowing us to do stuff.
Well, it's learned to allow us to do it. So that it can survive. And so when you just learn to soften way up or lighten up and to wait, just wait, even in training, when you're training a [00:13:00] horse to do something, you don't just drill it. Well, you, a lot of people do ~drill and ~drill and drill and drill and drill.
And then,~ uh,~ eventually the horse is doing it. But,~ um,~ You know, you know, in training, ~when you, ~when ~you, ~you,~ uh,~ you stimulate the horse, you know, ~you, ~you're presented with what you want it to do. And then when you, the first sign that it's getting it, you back off and you give it a chance to,~ um,~ to process what it just learned.
And ~then it, ~then it's really there. they're not just doing it because they have to. I,
Victoria: I'm like soaking up everything you're saying so much. You're jokingly saying, you know, I'm lazy and didn't know anything ~But ~but what I hear you saying is that you have the perspective to take a step back and just take more time and I think as a horse trainer, I've been doing this for a long time Something I've really learned
especially coming from kind of a performance horse world is just giving the horse more time is like magic, like giving the horse time to process the information. and then you said something, you know, noticing. The moment the horse is starting to [00:14:00] process or the moment the horse is starting to maybe start to figure it out, that's when to back off and boy, I have missed that moment so many times enough now where I'm, hopefully starting to get some feel, around that magic space of noticing the moment the horse is.
Connected or the moment the horse latches on to the information ~that you're ~that you're conveying and then taking the step back and then giving the horse ample time to actually process and then integrate the information. I would imagine ~your ~your time spent as a groom and really caring for horses and being in that capacity with them.
Not like Asking them to perform or learn something other than just like, I'm here to take care of you. Maybe helped inform that perspective.
Jim: Maybe. Yeah, because I didn't have an agenda, you know, I wasn't trying to get the horse to learn to do something or trying to get the horse to release tension.
I would just, you know, so just being there. So, yeah, I think that when we're,~ uh,~ I'm just [00:15:00] thinking out loud now, but I think ~when we, ~when we're around horses, when we're younger and ~we don't, ~we don't really pick up on that, or we're, we've been trained by the people that are the adults that are around us that have not, , they never were able to pick up on that, you know, then we just carry that through life with our work with horses.
And ~then, ~then,~ uh,~ when we come across something like this, we think, well, like you said, I can't believe that's what I used to do to my horse, you know?
Victoria: Absolutely.
Jim: Yeah, but there are a lot of old timers that are around that, you know, like the Dorrance brothers ~that, ~that are been around ~and, ~and got that, you know, that perspective from, so maybe even people they learned from that.
So it wasn't like, Oh, you know, horse people were,~ uh,~ like rough on their horses or ~didn't, ~didn't recognize this. They weren't all yahoos.
Victoria: Right, right. Well, that's, I heard you say,~ um,~ going with the horse and that's like one of the Tom Dorance quotes that I just like really try to, implant in my consciousness all the time is, first we go with the horse, then the horse goes with us. And I just,~ I,~ I
Jim: really appreciate that.
Yeah,~ um,~ it's [00:16:00] interesting.
Collaboration and Learning from Experts
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Jim: Dr. Steven Peters, he has the book out called Your Horse's Brain, and I was doing clinics with Mark Rashid, of, we call them combo clinics or collaborations because Mark Rashid is horse trainer that ~really, ~really pays attention to the horse and ~doesn't, ~doesn't like to cross that line into making the horse do anything.
~And, ~and he,~ um,~ Has a lot of wisdom ~and, ~and when I met him at the, I think it was the Midwest Horse Expo at Madison ~and, ~and,~ uh,~ I was doing demos there and I saw that he was there and I go, Oh,~ I,~ I want to meet Mark Rashid and I was really nervous about going to find him and meet him and I finally thought, okay, it was ~Saturday, ~Saturday morning, I'm just going to ~go, ~go to my booth.
I'm going to get it set up and then I'm going to go find Mark Rashid. I go to my booth and Mark and Chrissy are there. so we hooked up that way because they saw that the way that we do body work with horses is the way they work with horses. And Chrissy thought, well, this would be really good if you guys got together.
Chrissy's his wife. And so we started doing these clinics together. And then Mark hooked up with Dr. Peters because he recognized in his book that they were on the same page. And so, now we do, three way joint connect. It's kind of [00:17:00] cool.
Josh: That's really cool. Yeah. ~The, ~the power of collaboration, I just think can't be understated enough, even in professional circles, you know, there's this kind of fallacy of like competition, but I think it's just all about collaboration.
And in a sense that's borrowing from horse wisdom to, you know, the herd is stronger together, especially in these. niche worlds. It always kind of surprises me how, people tend to be polarizing within these little worlds. I'm like, Hey, you guys should all get along. You like, think the same thing, you know, you should probably be working together.
Jim: ~Uh, ~yeah, there's a lot of competition in the horse world ~for, ~for knowledge. And, you know, we, as humans, we want to be the one that. That knows how to do it right. And we want to be the one that knows how to fix the problem. And it's ~hard, ~hard to let go of that. I mean, it always comes up for, you know, even for me.
And so you're just going to have to step back and say, I don't need to be right. All I need to do ~is, ~is to,~ um,~ do something that, that will help the horse or make an improvement. And that opens up a, if you have that attitude when you're learning about horses, that helps a lot because that, like you said, if you're an expert,~ you're, you're only, ~you're only open to a few options.
And if you're not, you're open to, like, ~a lot, ~a lot of [00:18:00] possibilities.
Victoria: And I'll say the film that was made mind, like still water, I think it was called with you and Mark Rashid ahh That was. That was a moment for me when I saw that.
~Um, ~I realized, and there was like lots of context around. We had changed up our life ~and, ~and we're living off grid with our horses. We're just like all around us. And we kind of gone from this very performance centric way of doing horses to like, living around with our horses in this nature setting where it was actually kind of rough living, but natural living. we watched that documentary, I think we, got it from the library just somehow, and,~ um, it was, ~it was a paradigm shift for me, I was like, oh, there's people out there teaching this way of working with horses, and like you said, there's been, Tom Dorrance and Ray Hunt, there's been ~these, ~these spots of this type of relating to horses and working with horses, but I wept in that movie.
~I, ~ It was just like a very short film, but it just it was very powerful and that was when I realized,~ um,~ That folks like you [00:19:00] and Mark Rashid are out there doing this, like, and people are responding to it too. I didn't think that people would be interested in that approach, that kind of non expectation or non agenda based approach.
and then the concept of brace ~and, ~and getting under the brace, it just, opened up a whole new
Jim: paradigm for me. Yeah, well, it does for a lot of people. And then I,~ um,~ I think the Bladder Meridian was a huge thing, you know, just for me to, that's what caught my attention. And so it's so easy to teach.
Anybody can learn to do that. once they get it, like they know this isn't going to work at it. You don't know how many emails I've gotten. Well, ~I, ~I saw the Bladder Meridian and I said, And I went out to try it and I thought, yeah, this isn't going to work. It only works for him, you know, and then their horse like drops his head and starts yawning and it's tension that it's been holding its body for like, who knows, years and, ~um. ~That it just lets it go, that just changes their horse, there's a little kind of opening there with the bladder meridian to just try and see, then you experience it, and then you realize, wow, there's something else going on here that I've been missing, maybe, and the bladder meridian, [00:20:00] you can just go on our website and learn it for free, or on YouTube, we have a YouTube, you know, anybody can learn how to do it, it gives somebody an opening or a tool that they can try to see, Oh, wow. You know, there is something else going on here.
Josh: Yeah. Such a clever way to help people slow down. I mean, it's so hard for us as humans to just slow down. ~Um, ~although we tend to talk slow over here in Oregon, but,~ um,~ but just that slow down thing is so good,
when I was in bodywork school, one of my teachers used to say, you can't go too deep. You can only go too fast, which spoke a little bit to that. And some of that comes from Ida Rolfe's work, who was famous for doing really deep work. But it was really,
Jim: yeah, I got raw. I got Ralph, ~a friend of ~a friend of mine became a Ralph for like, I don't know, 20 years ago or so.
And I got Ralph and yeah, it was deep. But it wasn't, but it wasn't rushed though. So it was prolonged agony.
Josh: Something that we just seen, I'm wondering about you cause you [00:21:00] work with so many people. ~Uh, ~we notice that. People have patterns in their body, it was literally like, wow, I've never seen this horse's right shoulder look like this before.
And then she's like, Oh, my gosh, I have been not able to sleep the last few nights because my right shoulder is hurt. Have you seen that
like horses and people
Jim: mirroring? when I do these clinics with Mark and Mark's really good at seeing,~ uh,~ movement in horses and seeing where there might be something that's not quite moving or not moving right in horses and same in the rider. And ~he, he, ~he often will Say relax your right shoulder and the writer relax the right shoulder.
And all of a sudden the horse will move better. there are correlations. They're there, you know. And,~ uh,~ a rider will come into that clinic with,~ uh,~ and they've got,~ uh,~ a hip problem or something.
we'll see it in the movement in the horse sometimes. And it's subtle sometimes, and horses are really good at covering up stuff too. So, ~but, ~but I think there are, they call it mirroring between the rider and the horse, or, you know, two different physiologies maybe. So,
Victoria: . I think we've noticed it even just like mentally too,
the horse person has the brace in their body or the [00:22:00] block It's like josh will feel it in the horse's body. ~Um, and ~And yeah, the person will be like well, that's where i'm sore right now Like josh hasn't even working on the person he's working on the horse. And ~um, ~so yeah, it's just been ~kind of like ~Okay, it's happened enough where it feels like a thing.
Jim: Yeah. And it might be the horse might come with other things going on that might be, clouding that up, the horse might be stuck somewhere else that's causing this maybe to be stuck. So it won't be like a direct, mirror. necessarily, but, I think ~the, ~the feedback from the humans, there's enough feedback and to show that there are some correlations between their patterns in the human body and the horse's body.
Josh: Something that ~we, ~we tend to do a bit of is help therapists and people who like coach and facilitate and work in more healing environments that are interested in working with horses in their work.
Equine Assisted Therapies and Emotional Connections
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Josh: So they're not horse people, you know, they're not,~ um,~ come from performance background or really have experience something we found helping non horse people that are interested in working with [00:23:00] horses ~and, ~in this agenda free, but more healing environment capacity, I've been exploring and I haven't really worked this out yet.
I'm working it out in real time. Like ~what, ~what is it about body work that really helps people? understand and connect with horses. I was just wondering if you could share maybe some of your experiences, like for example, if you've seen people have emotional reactions or just like aha moments
Jim: doing this kind of work.
Well, yeah, when we're teaching like a seminar or a course,~ um,~ it happens all the time, you know, when the,~ when,~ when people learn, there are a lot of aha moments, but I know that in like equine assistive therapies, Well, there's one therapist I know who works with people.
She's a human therapist,~ uh,~ psychotherapist, and she works with horses and when she was explaining this to me, it was pretty fascinating that she'll just take a small group of people into the paddock with horses, just horses loose in the paddock. And then just wait and see what happens. And the horses will come up to some people and not come up to other people.
And she's learned that, if you come into the paddock without being [00:24:00] authentic about how you're feeling, if you're coming in like, ~uh, ~I'm not afraid of horses. I, you know, this is, I'm good with this. And that's not authentic, the horses won't come up to you, but the people that are really genuine, like, I'm a little, I'm a little worried, you know, I'm a little scared that the horses will come up to those people.
So the horses pick up on, on stuff, you know, it's not just ~what we're, ~what we're doing for the horses, what the horse is doing for us too. these courses, Master's in Method Equine Specialist courses,~ uh,~ it's a three day,~ uh,~ hands on course. And then there's, ~if you, ~if you want to get certified as a Master's in Method Equine Specialist, the Equine Specialist part,~ um, we, ~we picked up from PATH has.
~Uh, ~equine specialist. So in equine assisted therapies, you have the horse and then you have what I thought was interesting. They called it the client, which I would call just the participant, you know, the person that's there for the therapy. And then you have the mental health professional there, but you have to have somebody that's going to be the horse handler in that situation, that's there to make sure that ~the, ~the horse and the rider or the horse and the client are safe to handle the horse part. So you have the human mental health [00:25:00] therapist, and then you have the horse specialist, equine specialist, and then you have the horse and the client.
And so there's so many different ways that you,~ that,~ that there, that horses are used in therapy and equine assisted therapies. were hearing that people were using,~ uh,~ the bladder meridian with their clients on horses. They were showing ~their, ~their client how to do the bladder meridian on the horse and they were getting really good results.
it's, you're kind of, you're just being totally present when the horse, when you're just doing the bladder meridian and then you're watching the horse's responses. You're pretty much it's almost it's like you're meditating in a way ~your ~your mind settles down. You're just watching the horse and you're waiting and just being present like that is huge benefit in some for some therapists.
So ~we ~we started looking into and we decided well we're going to create this simple course it's not a complicated course just to teach people the equine specialist how to show a client how to do the bladder marine. in a safe and effective way, because, 95 times out of 100, it's going to go really well.
But every once in a while, even just doing the bladder milling, you start to uncover stuff in the horse since the horse, it'll bring up stuff for [00:26:00] the horse where the horse will pin its ears ~and, ~and be uncomfortable. Or it might even, you know, bare its teeth at you. So, we just wanted to make sure it was safe and effective for somebody that's in ~that, ~that setting.
, one of the early things that got us really interested in this is one of our instructors was teaching ~a, ~a weekend clinic ~at a, ~at a,~ uh,~ girls ranch. It was a, I think it was for,~ um,~ abused girls ~or, ~or maybe girls from inner city things. And it was a ranch. It was a therapy, it was a therapy place and in residence.
And so, ~uh, ~Lisa taught a weekend there and she said it was a little rough, you know, some, with some of these girls, you know, ~they didn't, ~they didn't really want to do it, you know, they want to probably ride their horse or do something. But she said that,~ um,~ after the course,~ uh,~ somebody called. on the therapy side of ~the, the, ~the place called ~the, ~the barn side manager and said, well, ~um, ~a couple of the girls had breakthroughs after the seminar.
So they wanted to do more. So that's when we thought, well, we need to look into this ~and, ~and,~ um,~ and create ~a, ~a training for that. There was another interesting story that Lisa told, she was in a setting with,~ uh,~ with a client and with the horse and with,~ uh,~ the mental health person and [00:27:00] Lisa was teaching this person how to do the bladder meridian and,~ uh,~ and at one point ~the, ~the horse,~ uh,~ it started yawning and releasing tension.
And so the therapist stepped in and said, well, how did that make you feel to the client? And Lisa said,~ no,~ no, wait a minute. It's not about the person. It's about the person helping the horse. So she had to kind of say, no, this isn't about the person getting therapy. It's about the person giving the horse the therapy.
And then the person gets the benefit of that. it just happens. Because you're providing, you're helping ~this, ~this horse. And the horse is helping you at the same time, but you can't, like, make it about the person, it's got to be about the horse. And I said to Lisa, no, it's not about the horse, it's about helping the person.
And Lisa said, no, it's about helping the horse. If it's not about helping the horse, the person's not going to get the help. You know, so, that was interesting. That ~you're not, ~you're not getting the therapy yourself, you're giving the horse the therapy. And in that process you both get
Josh: the therapy. I'm so glad you told that story.
~You're, you're, ~you're touching on so many nuances ~that we're, ~that we're exploring and ~trying to, ~trying to understand, because it is nuanced. And, you know, [00:28:00] Victoria likes to say nothing for the horse without the horse. And then we were looking on your website and you said, With the horse, not on the horse.
It was like, Hey, all right,~ we're,~ we're plugged into something here. but that paradox of, giving therapy is one thing I felt like you touched on and how ~is it, ~is it like a one way road or is it a two way road? I think it's two way. And then the other one is just that whole horse is a tool. paradigm, ~which is, ~which is out there a lot in the performance world, obviously, but it's also exists in the therapy world.
Josh: I think there's more awareness. People are trying to bring more consciousness around that. But I thought everything you just said really spoke to that.
Jim: A lot of ~the, ~the horses in therapy barns are, I think this is just my personal take, they take on a lot of stress ~from the people, ~from the people in the programs ~and, ~and,~ uh,~ they end up shutting down, so you can get the horse out, you can put somebody on it or you can do something with the horse and then the horse will just do it.
But the horse is pretty much shut down. And a lot of them are rescue horses to start with, or retired, you know, ~uh, ~broken [00:29:00] down horses that go into that's their retirement job. So they, they can use this, type of body work, the horses can.
And so if the participants in the programs can be the ones to help the horse, that's even better or the volunteers, they volunteered at clean stalls and groom horses and stuff, but, ~um. ~I'll just tell another story we have a guy who went through our training and I met him down in Florida at a therapy barn because we did a weekend there he wasn't the barn manager, but he was like the main horse guy and he learned the Masterson method and he would do,~ uh,~ bladder meridian on these horses.
And he said, before he started doing this, the horses would be like, most of them would be standing in their stall with their head in the corner, just kind of shut down and not interacting with anybody and or engaging anybody and the barn management allowed him to spend time on the horses doing the bladder meridian and some other body work.
And he said it wasn't long before. All the horses were standing with their head out in the aisle and engaging with people and stuff. And then the barn changed management or ownership at one point and he didn't have time to do that anymore and he said within like a month they're all back in the corner again.
So
Josh: [00:30:00] I think what you're touching on is just something I feel like. Like needs to be talked from the rooftops,
Jim: you know, and yeah, that's what we're that's what we're doing. That's what we're
Josh: doing. Yeah.
The Importance of Mindful Groundwork
---
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our friend Chrissy in Maui. ~She ~she's a barn director of a PATH certified therapeutic writing facility ~and ~and Equine Assisted Services.
Josh: Equine Assisted [00:31:00] Services
Jim: facility. Thank you. It seems to change. It seems the title, the name changes every, you know, from Equine Assisted Therapy to Equine Assisted Learning to Equine Assisted Services. So, ~yeah, yeah, ~
Josh: yeah. I have to remember it's Equine Assisted Services is the.
Jim: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Josh: But we were discussing that, that shutdown factor, cause that's a thing, right?
A lot of people that don't understand horses don't realize ~that ~that's that horse is actually shut down. They're not calm. They're not peaceful. They're not necessarily happy. They're shut down. It's a different nervous system response. Her idea, which I thought was brilliant, was that there needs to be a PSA campaign for more mindful groundwork.
I just feel like adding to that, this body work component is so important. You know, you mentioned. the volunteers, everybody that works at these barns should have like, a mandatory bladder Meridian training or some kind of
Jim: body work. Yeah. Cause that's what the horses respond to.
You know, ~they, ~they're,~ um,~ they're like rock hard inside some of these horses if you put pressure on them, they just shut down. But if you don't put pressure on them, then [00:32:00] they. And then you allow their nervous system to start to feel stuff letting go, then that's what makes the change. So it's really simple to do.
people say the horses at ~this, ~this therapy barn, Oh, he's bomb proof, nothing bothers him. And then you go to work on them and you realize there's nothing moving in there at all, physically, or even, you know, emotionally. ~And, ~and,~ uh,~ so
The Therapeutic Bond Between Humans and Horses
---
Victoria: I was just gonna say, from,~ um,~ an equine assisted services perspective, from a human centric therapeutic perspective, horses as healers to humans in that capacity.
To me, and what I have learned being engaged in that work myself is that the part that is the most therapeutic, the part that is the most, healing, is ~the, ~the relational aspect between human and horse. And that is impossible if the horse is shut down if the horse is, you know, not present or the horse is to me, the whole point is to develop ~this, ~this relationship with the horse and see where that goes and see what comes up for the people and see what comes up.
for the horse and it's dynamic [00:33:00] and it's ever changing and needs to be organic and flowy. and it's going to be hard sometimes and it's going to be wonderful sometimes, if the horse is shut down, like you said, rock hard or bomb proof, that's not
Jim: going to happen at all. Yeah. Yeah.
Uncovering Hidden Traumas in Horses
---
Jim: and some horses you'll uncover stuff just doing,~ uh,~ body work, this light body work like this, bladder meridian.
they've been protecting something for so long and they start to feel it. They've been blocking it out You know, ~they ~they survive by blocking out Physical discomfort and pain, they just block it out and keep going until it gets so bad that they start to show lameness but before that they're just blocking it out.
And so sometimes these horses have stuff that's emtional trauma Maybe some emotional trauma in the past. I'm just guessing, but something that's happened. They've just blocked it out like they've shut down on that. And then ~you find that ~you find that those kind of horses like you'll be going over and lightly and maybe the eyelash will move.
Oh, there's something going on there. And so ~you ~you wait there and you just ~wait and ~wait and wait. And then they'll start to drop their head in their aisles often and they'll catch themselves and they'll kind of tense up again. And you just wait a little longer. Okay. And they'll do it [00:34:00] again. And then when they can't hold it in any longer and it's, it'll uncover some discomfort and they'll pin their ears or they'll want to walk away, you know, so you can let them walk away or you can just follow them and keep on it as long as they don't get too uncomfortable and then all of a sudden it lets go.
But you know, you can uncover some stuff like I've had a couple of horses just lunge at me, you know, like I'll do some work on them, you know, right. ~Uh, ~and then I'll step back to see what they have to say and,~ um,~ they'll blink a couple of times and they'll just spin in lunch, cause you just uncovered something.
The Importance of Patience in Horse Bodywork
---
Jim: and I've learned to go even slower and lighter, over the years, because when I was working on show horses, it was, you know, you want to get it, get the job done and you have an hour, you know, or less or something to work on him. now I've learned that, like, like you said, you can go deeper, but you can't, ~you don't, ~you don't want to go too fast, you know, you can.
What did you say
Josh: Oh, you can't go too deep. You can only go too
Jim: fast. Yeah. So, so I've learned that ~you can, ~you can replace, you can substitute,~ uh,~ time for pressure. So rather than going a little bit deeper, you can go a little slower and wait more, and then ~you'll get, ~[00:35:00] you'll get even better results.
And it'll be less uncomfortable for the horse. And when I was working on horses more, working on show horses, or even teaching, I realized I was going too fast then too. when I don't work on as many horses, now when I do work on a horse, I don't have any time thing. It's not like I gotta get this one done and get the next one done.
~And I, ~and I slow down, I'll just do a very little and get huge releases. And then I don't have to keep going. I can just stop and then come back later and do more. And it works even better. So the time replaces pressure thing. ~It's pretty, ~it's pretty
Josh: helpful. That's extremely helpful. That's a good mantra.
I am a constant like. try and do too much, you know, with pretty much everything in life. You mean you're, you
Jim: mean you're
Josh: human? ? Yeah, , yeah. Yeah. ~Um, ~but just realizing that doing less is more is, I mean, it sounds simple, it's a little cliche, but boy, it's really true and ~mm-hmm.~
And just another thing that I love about your work, that you really talk about, noticing the reactions. It's like there's the slow part, which I think that alone is paradigm shifting for so many people, but then when you pair that with the noticing the [00:36:00] reactions, I'm just thinking about the shutdown horse and this whole concept of like relational attunement, which, I've heard Dr.
Dan Siegel has written some really interesting books about attunement and how people relate and how we're designed to co regulate and connect with people and animals, like all sentient beings are basically designed to connect. One of the take home points that I got because like his stuff is way over my head But the one thing that I really got out of that was just the seeing and being seen and when I hear you talking about Noticing this subtle movement of the eye a little twitch of the mouth to me that encapsulates That, you know, and that, especially for these therapy horses, I mean, for every horse, but when we're talking about the shutdown horses, I just feel like they're just, they got their back there in the corner.
I just feel like they're just like, nobody sees me. ~I'm just, ~I'm just like a tool here. I'm just hanging out. ,
Jim: just, yeah, they're so, ~uh, ~sensitive, I mean, they're a huge creature and they can be hugely physical and dangerous at the same time. They're so sensitive and subtle at the same time, [00:37:00] so.
It's recognizing that part of the thing for a lot of people, the thing about the bodywork in general is it gets results, when you release tension in the horse, you get better movement, you get better performance and, you start to realize how much is going on in your horse's body, probably,~ uh,~ you know, as much as going on in ours, maybe even more, but a lot of what's going on in our bodies, we don't even not aware of, but, Anyways,~ um, uh, ~there are certain disciplines in sports that are, you know, catch onto this pretty quickly.
And then there are other ones that don't catch on so quickly, like roping or team roping. You know, ~those are, ~those are,~ uh, uh, ~you know, a lot of men do those sports and a lot of women. I ~do ~do the other sports, so they catch on quicker to this. I mean, so many horses, when I do get a chance to go work on or I have in the past they have a lot going on, you know, and a lot of one sidedness too.
So, ~but, ~but as long as they, they can get on, the writer can get on and do their job, that's all they really are interested in. They're not interested in, can my horse be more comfortable doing his job? Or may, maybe he'll even be better, if you give it a chance, you know, and really, that's ~the old, the old, ~the old style of, working with horses, I guess.
Josh: Right now ~you, ~you brought up [00:38:00] another interesting paradox, something that we've certainly dealt with, just as that performance. And connection world and how there's a bit of a golf there.
Transition from Performance to Teaching
---
Josh: And I know you kind of talk a lot about ~your, ~your lack of formal training, but I've also heard you say you've worked on like 50 horses a week for years on end.
but those are all in performance settings. And I just, I wonder like, where are you at now in that dichotomy? Like, do you. just really have a foot in both worlds?
Jim: I don't work on ~a, ~a lot of horses 'cause it's not how I, you know, it's not how I make a living now.
I can make a living by teaching people how to do it. But working on the show jumpers, I was really fortunate,~ um,~ to hook up with a guy,~ uh,~ who had a body work business in,~ uh,~ Wellington, Bill Stanton, when I first went down to Wellington with our show barn and I was grooming and we go down there every winter for, we started out in the Midwest.
So we would do like Mason City, Iowa, Columbia, Missouri,~ uh,~ we go over to Lexington, which was the big time, in the spring and then in the fall for the pony finals. And then, ~um. ~As the riders got better, then the trainer started [00:39:00] going out farther and we'd ended up going to Ocala then we ended up going to Wellington, which was like the Mecca of the, , the,~ uh,~ the hunter jumper world ~every, ~every winter.
That's about when I started my working on horses when ~I, ~I decided I would haul the horses down there for Val I wouldn't groom. She would bring another groom, but I would haul them down, and then I would stay there for the season and work on horses, and then I would haul them back.
And when I was building, trying to build up my bodywork business, you know, ~it was, ~it was struggling along and,~ uh,~ maybe doing six horses a week or something. And, like, I remember talking, calling my wife and saying, hey, she said, how many horses you work? I was so excited. I worked on six horses this week.
And then, ~um. ~I was working for a farrier too,~ uh,~ at the same time,~ uh,~ show farrier there. He was really good and I would pull shoes and help keep things cleaned up for him while he shod these horses. ~Um, ~and he was friends with,~ uh,~ a guy named Bill Stanton who was a vet tech for a really, big,~ um,~ veterinary practice on the East Coast, Dr.
Steele's practice. So Bill had been his vet tech for 20 years and Bill was also inspired by this chiropractor guy. Bill wanted to go out and do body work on horses. so he left the vet practice. he was afraid he's going to have to start over again and [00:40:00] build his business.
But he immediately had like 300 clients, you know, because of his time with Dr. Steele. and he didn't want to hire somebody to work with him because there, you know, he's that kind of competition, you know, you don't want to share your seat because you don't want to share your clients. But since Bill knew Kenny the farrier, and I was working for Kenny, and then he said, why don't you have Jim work for you?
So, I went to work for Bill and went from six. Horses a week to 12 the first day that they were built. And so I did that for nine years. It was a huge education, you know, just working on that many horses is a huge education on what works, what doesn't work, how the tension patterns build in the horse, what causes them, you know, cause everything in the body is caused by something with horses, show horses, its feet, sore feet, a lot dental issues, saddle fit,~ uh,~ the.
conditioning so, I learned a lot about that because if you can help the owner ~or the, ~or the trainer, Find out what's causing the tension in the body and you can, they can remedy it. Then that problem won't show up again. ~And, ~and feet are a huge thing, especially for some reason with jumpers.
so that was my point. It was a huge education to be able ~to, ~to do that. And so when [00:41:00] I started teaching it, I was able to start to share that. So teaching is just sharing it. that's how I ended up, where I am today, which is not working on a lot of horses. So I'm not really involved In the competition world anymore. And I'm not competitive anyways. ~I wasn't, ~I wasn't really into the competition when I was working on show horses, I was just into, to being successful and then, helping the horses move better ~for the, ~for the client.
I forget what the question was, but that's the answer.
Another big boost for me is I worked on,~ uh,~ while I was down in Ocala,~ I,~ I worked on,~ um,~ Val Canaby was a endurance rider and she's a two time world champion.
And in 2005, I worked on her horses in Ocala and she liked the results. So ~I, ~I worked on them whenever I went to Ocala. And then in 2006, they made her the chef to keep of the U. S. endurance team for the world equestrian games. And so she asked me to go to,~ uh,~ Germany with them to work on the team horses.
And so they would pay my way and, you know, all my expenses and ~I, ~I didn't get paid for it, but I jumped at it. So, I got into endurance that way. And that was my first endurance event was the [00:42:00] World Equestrian Games in Aachen, Germany. So, ~um, ~you know, I realized, well, it's nice to start at the top and work your way down sometimes.
But,~ um,~ so I got exposed to that too. So I was in two, two worlds of competition, mostly 100 jumper ~and then, ~and then the endurance, but I'm not really competitive. So neither of them was really, I wasn't involved in the sports other than that. And so I think your question was, do I have one foot in the performance world and one in this world?
And I really don't have a foot in the performance world other than what I learned and I'm able to share. Yeah. Yeah.
Josh: You got all that time on your hands in that world and learn so much. we're really enjoying working more in like, ~um, ~the equinox, it's a services world now after having a pretty long career in performance roles, we come from the Western world.
I don't have as much experience with that fancy hunter jumper stuff that like you do. Yeah. Right. Yeah.
Jim: ~Um, ~all their boots are shiny and everything. They all wear the same little outfit and horses are tacked up the same. Anyway. See, I get you. The Western world is a little different, but I don't know ~what, what, ~[00:43:00] what Western sports were you
Josh: involved in?
~Uh, ~Victoria had a long apprenticeship and a reined cow horse and some cutting and reining,
Jim: you know, all that stuff.
Victoria: Not, you know, I mean, definitely different outfits. ~Um, ~but especially in the last several years, I think it's, becoming just as fancy in its own aesthetic, but ~just, ~just as much money and just as
Jim: fancy for sure.
Just as much. Yeah. Just as much money ~and, and, ~and that kind of drive to win and, you know, which ~sometimes, ~sometimes ~the, ~the horse falls by the wayside, you know, the. the well being of the horse is a little bit sometimes substituted for that. for winning, yeah, raining and rain, cowhorses and others were like, that's a really rough.
sport on the horse. I mean they're doing the same thing ~over and ~over and over again. I think a smart trainer will cross train, you know, and do different things, not just drill the horse in spinning and sliding and what, you know, the main things that some sports take,~ um,~ endurance riders.
It's interesting over the years. I've, seen that ~they, ~they've, they start to do dressage lessons because it [00:44:00] helps them as a rider learn how to ride in a more balanced way because endurance is, you know, you just go for whatever the, you know, ~the, ~the event is a hundred miles, 50 miles, 25 miles in a straight line.
And then,~ um,~ The horse is getting incredibly sore, but they found that if they do dressage lessons, their horses stay more flexible, they get some lateral movement and they, ~the horse, ~the ~horse ~horse nurse had to use itself in a more balanced way. You know, not like, drilling dressage it's like cross training ~for, ~for the horse and the writer.
So I think that's really helpful if you're doing any sport is to do something. not just drill the horse in the same thing all the time.
Josh: Yeah. I couldn't agree more. ~That's, ~that's what I. I'm really spoiled. I get to work with Victoria, who's so great with horses, and we do basically a combination of certain therapeutic groundwork and body work.
just to your point, I think ~that ~that's a really nice combo to, you know, add some movement into that.
Jim: Oh, and yeah, Jillian Kreinbring. I'm starting to do some things with her and she does this amazing groundwork to ~keep, ~keep the horse connected ~and, ~and limber, you know, it's almost like body work from the [00:45:00] ground in movement.
So it's super important.
Josh: It really is. Yeah. There's these ancient mystical orders that have classical roots, but they didn't really go to the traditional performance realms that we've kind of discovered more recently too. That sounds like what you're talking about.
It's really fascinating.
Jim: Yeah. Yeah. Good stuff.
Meditation and Mindfulness in Horse Training
---
Josh: I heard that you had a, an experience with,~ uh,~ meditation at one point in your life and something that ~we, ~we found really helped some of the folks that we work with is just ~some, ~some simple breath work, real simple stuff can really help. Get you a place where you can slow down and feel that stuff that you're teaching with the bladder meridian technique And I was just curious if ~you ~you had any thing to speak about
Jim: that or is that something?
Yeah. ~No, ~no It's I think it's really helpful. So I was, when I was 22, I moved to Alaska when I got out of high school. well, I went there when I was 20 or 19. Anyways, I was working on the pipeline and a friend of mine that I was living with,~ um,~ who lived up there, he got me up there.
~He, he, ~he came back,~ uh,~ to the house one day. He said, I just learned TM, you know, and it's just [00:46:00] amazing. Transcendental meditation is an amazing form of meditation. He said you should learn it. So, ~um, ~so I learned TM, in back then in the 70s. I've meditated on and off, you know, since then, but in where I live now in Fairfield, Iowa, I came here in 1985 just to stop and visit because he'd moved back down here.
And Fairfield is a pretty big center for the transcendental. meditation movement. ~Um, ~Maharishi International University is here. I visited here and then I stayed a couple years and I've come and gone from here over, over the years and I ended up here. I've been here 87, and my wife is a meditator and she's also a, she was also a hunter jumper person.
it's funny because, you know, I didn't get super involved in the TM movement. I learned to meditate, you know, and ~that was, ~that was a huge benefit for me, but all of the other stuff that goes with it, you know, the cultural stuff that wasn't interested in. So, ~um, ~meditation ~helps, ~helps you at least you experience, ~um.~
Mindfulness in the short period. You're meditating. If you meditate twice a day or whenever for 20 minutes, you experience that. So then you start to recognize it. I think out in the world that mindfulness. So I think ~that ~[00:47:00] that helps now. ~Um, ~there's a lot of beer drinking going on in between all the times I was meditating.
It's not like, you know, it wasn't, it's not like I put on a saffron robe and ~I, ~I'm a monk or anything, but, ~and I, ~and I don't, I'm not involved with the TM movement, but it's learning how to meditate. Okay. Some form of meditation that learns that you just get to experience that silence that helps in life, you know, and then you experience it, you recognize it in the horse.
Maybe. I don't know. I'm sure that had something to do with it, being able to, search for the blank and just wait and do nothing. Like literally nothing, for as long as it takes for the horse to start to let go. So that was probably how at the end of the day, after 10 horses, though, I'm going to go have a few beers.
So sorry, that's the way it goes. That's harmony, right? Yeah. Harmony and integrate its integrating to you know life So it's just, you know. I look at it as a format integrating.
Victoria: I love that. 'cause I also like to have a beer and I also like to meditate. Yeah. ~Mm-hmm. ~. So it's nice ~to, ~to find
Jim: your people . Yeah. Right. they're not [00:48:00] mutually exclusive, you know?
Right. You can enjoy ha you can enjoy life having a beer or whatever, and then ~you can, ~you can experience some silence ~and, ~and,~ uh,~ And so I haven't meditated regularly for a long time. I'll just meditate every once in a while. But I recently went to the doctor to, have some, you know, have him look at my shoulder and,~ uh,~ my, my blood pressure has been going up, you know, over the last couple of years.
And I'm not going to blame it on,~ um,~ internet technology, but it's been going on, but anyways, I've been reluctant to try any medications, but he prescribed me some and he said, come back in a month or so and we'll see how you're doing. And I thought, well, why don't I just start meditating again and not take these pills and then come back and see, or just check my blood pressure and see if it helps.
So I just in the last couple of weeks started meditating every day.
Josh: Wow. Okay. So ~you're, ~you're back on the meditation train. I'll
Jim: be
Victoria: excited to hear ~if, ~if it made, like, what the difference, I know it'll make a difference, but yeah,
Jim: I'll be, well, that's my plan is to not take these and just meditate twice a day and go out and be, I'll be traveling, but you know, that doesn't matter.
And,~ um,~ the next [00:49:00] month and then come back and see see if it's going down, but it'd be cool to go back in and he can say, Oh, the medication is working. And I say, well, the meditation is working at the medication. Cause I haven't taken any, but ~that's my, ~that's my fun plan.
Josh: Okay. That's cool. Keep us posted. Yeah. That'll be interesting. I've seen like one of those posters, you know, where it was just ~like a, ~like a bottle full of different colored pills and it was like, this, or then just like somebody meditating. So I'm hoping ~that ~
Jim: that works for you. Yeah, we'll see. I know it does, you know, TM does help a lot of people with high blood pressure. So,
Josh: You kind of ended up in like the TM, American headquarters area too. And that's
Jim: fascinating. Well, it's a neat town. It's a small town, you know, it's 10, 000 people.
~And, ~and, it's an Iowa town, it's just a small Iowa town, but I like small town life. Things are not as expensive, you know, people at the, supermarket, you know, the guy at the gas station, you know, you just know everybody and it's just a nicer lifestyle.
So that, just small town life and we, you know, we're out right on the edge of town and we have 17 acres and we're just a mile from town. [00:50:00] And when I used to drive my horses, I have 2 Morgans,~ they're,~ they're retired now too, but I could drive into town and tie them up at the gas station and go in and have coffee with my buddies.
And there is a nice restaurant that had a nice tree outside and I could go in and tie them to the tree and give them a hay net and go have a few beers and they're right outside the window there. So ~you, ~you really can't do that in Southern California anymore. I don't think Wow. it's a neat little Iowa town, but it has that added quality of having like minded people ~that are, ~that are meditators or used to be meditators or they're into some other, something else, but it's kind of a cool little mix.
Josh: Interesting. I, a little bit, I've been around meditation communities.
I've noticed they tend to be really good cooks. I think it's like all that, like, you know, not doing your senses. So then they just like go wild with the food. So there's like great bakeries and amazing. Yeah.
Victoria: I, we're going to finish up with just a couple more questions, but Jim, do you have any.
Sharing Knowledge and Building a Community
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Victoria: Projects or I know you're gonna be traveling and you actually have a lot going on. How can people follow you? [00:51:00] What should people pay attention to you? How do they get in touch with you?
Jim: I was afraid you were gonna ask that question Okay, I'll let it out.
We have a webinar site
and we have a Facebook page , that's the way to find out more. If you're interested in finding out more, is to go to the website or go to the Facebook page. And I do a newsletter every month that I think is funny, but I don't know if everybody thinks is funny,
yeah, that's probably the main thing. I mean, we have a lot of stuff on our YouTube channel, like free stuff. I put stuff on YouTube, how to do things with your horses. Certain techniques that you can just go try it and see if you like it. And ~if, ~if you like it, if you like it and your horse likes it and you want to learn more, then you can, go on the website and buy the book and DVD.
And then if you try it some more and you like it and you want to learn more, you can do a weekend seminar. We have them ~all over the, ~all over the country and all over, well, and Europe. Australia and South Africa. So, ~uh, ~you know, I don't like want people to buy a [00:52:00] book or do a course if they're not going to like it.
So my philosophy is put it out there and share it and if people want to learn more,~ they'll,~ they'll kind of learn more. And some people will just do a weekend and wow, I love this. And they'll just go off and run with that. But then other people want to do more. So they can go to an advanced course if they want to do that.
Josh: Great. Yeah. ~We'll, ~we'll link all that too. And anything we put out around
Jim: this
Victoria: episode, . And we get the newsletter thing, Josh, like you have a newsletter too. And Josh is always like, spends a ridiculous amount of time.
Jim: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's exactly. That's why I like doing them. And so I have to make time to do them sometimes, but it's hard to get started. But then once I get. ~I, I'm, ~I'm entertaining myself, like you said, craft, crafting the newsletter.
Victoria: it's a creative endeavor and,~ um,~ you have a huge, a big audience.
We have not so big of an
Jim: audience, it'll grow. That's the way it works. You know, cause I was ready to give up early on, you know, I just have a hard timefinding, people that were ~really, ~really getting it.
[00:53:00] And then I remember calling my wife from Florida and she says, you know, if you're,~ uh,~ if you enjoy doing it, stick with it. She calls it the last man standing rule. so I did, and then something broke and then. Took off. Well, it took off slowly, but it's built up to here, but it kept going. It kept getting better and better.
More and more people were learning about it. So, ~yeah, yeah, ~
Josh: yeah. I know it takes time and I, we're going to get to our last three questions. I got so many other things I want to talk to you about. but hopefully we'll get a
Jim: chance another time to, yeah, we could do this again if you'd like to.
Final Thoughts and Reflections
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Victoria: so if you had to distill what's important about horses to only three things, what would they
Jim: be?
Well, yeah, everything's important about horses. So that would be the first thing. And ~I don't, ~I don't remember the other two. Love it.
Victoria: Wonderful.
Jim: well, their silence ~is, ~is I think really important. That's good. Yeah. That's really, of course, that's not the thing at the top of your mind when you're racing down the rail,~ uh,~ raining cowhorse, chasing a [00:54:00] steer, you know, but that's probably not what's in the front of your mind. But anyways, that's what's important to me.
Victoria: You know, you say that, but,~ uh,~ you know, ~the, ~the times when I was doing that a lot,~ the,~ the runs that work the best were the runs where. the faster I was sending the horse, the faster the cow was going, the slower I got. And it's almost like time stood still. And like, ~um, ~you know, that was when things worked well and were actually were pretty ~and, ~and felt good.
And I could get out of the horse's way and ~let, ~let him make the turn. So, ~um, ~there's something to that actually,~ even,~ even in those faster sports that are
Jim: a little more. Yeah, you can be present and conscious while you're doing something like that.
Victoria: And in fact, it's an amazing prac, not to go off, but it's like, that's probably one of the things I love most about that sport in particular, was it was like ~a, ~a very,~ um,~ difficult practice that like was fun ~to try ~to try to do in that.
In that
Jim: way. Yeah. Yeah. And it's exciting too. ~I, I, ~I think horses like excitement, you know, they like [00:55:00] an adrenaline rush. They like it. They like,~ uh,~ that, you know, it's not like they just want to stand around and eat all day. Even in the wild, they, you know, what's their main thing to do?
Eat. And reproduce, but they still like, they like some excitement. They like to get into a little tussle or they like to get spooked and run off and then turn around and Hey, everything's fine. So it's not like the, I think those,~ uh,~ partnerships with horses,~ uh,~ where you're competing are probably a lot of that I think the horse likes, you know, they, especially if you're a little bit aware of what's going on with your horse's body, I think physically or mentally or emotionally, I'm not saying ~that, ~that it's all gotta be quiet and peaceful and just munching on grass for a horse. I think they do like some challenge and excitement. They like routine. They definitely like routine, which training does, and they like partnership.
So they like to partner with humans or horses. Yeah.
Victoria: okay. So when it comes to horses, someone or something you feel
Jim: gratitude for? ~Mm. ~I don't know. Well, there's certain, you know, certain events, you know, I feel gratitude for,~ uh,~ being able to follow those, [00:56:00] the chiropractor and those massage therapists and hooking up with,~ uh,~ Bill Stanton and hooking up with,~ uh,~ the internets with Valerie Kennedy, you know, a lot of things.
not just because I could learn more, but you know, at the time I was happy I could make a living and then I started teaching seminars early on, you know, and so I was glad I could share it. So, ~um, ~all of those things that I was able to learn from, I'm able to share and I'm able to,~ uh,~ make a living and help horses at the same time.
By sharing it and people, you know, it's not just about the horses. It's about the people.
That's pretty great. have gratitude for TM and beer and,~ um,~ there are a lot of things
Victoria: okay. Last question. One word to describe the kind of horse person you aspire to be.
Jim: I like questions where I don't have to think where I already, it's just in there ready to come out. So, ~um, uh, ~just good, I guess. A good horse person.
Josh: I don't know if you've ever heard of father Richard Rohr he's this wonderful author,~ uh,~ And he said the three, transcendental truths were,~ uh,~ good, beautiful and true.
So good is like real, like it's, it
Jim: means a lot. Yeah. I'm a [00:57:00] third of the way there then.
Josh: Well, Jim, I thank you so much for your time here today. ~I just, ~I just want to recognize your teaching spirit and the impact you've had on so many people and so many horses, and just to think about how that. Ripples, through time and space and all the different people. It's just fantastic.
You know, you didn't keep your trade secrets secret. You put them up on YouTube. You had the foresight to put out a book and a DVD training before anybody was even really thinking about that stuff. and you still find time to sit down with a couple of people from Oregon that you don't really know, uh, on your Sunday.
So I just really appreciate that and all your good work out there. It's been a pleasure talking to you and getting to know you a little bit
Jim: better. ~Uh,~ yeah, I enjoyed this too. It was a nice way to ~spend, ~spend a Sunday morning.
I hope you enjoyed the show today. We'd love for you to join our free sub stack community for the herd is calling connect with us, engage in thoughtful discussions and access [00:58:00] exclusive content. Click the link nearby to subscribe. It's so easy and totally free. We appreciate listening. And as always, may the horse be with you.
